Copernicia x vespertilionum (C. gigas x C. rigida)

[Eric in Orlando]

Copernicia × vespertilionum is a hybrid of C. gigas and C. rigida. This one was planted in May 1999 from a 3 gal. pot here at Leu Gardens. It has tolerated down to 27F with minimal damage. It is going to be one of the bigger ones like C. baileyana or C. fallaensis.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Wowser!!!!! This is such a beautiful palm, the copernicia hybrids are simply spectacular!!!

[Alicehunter2000]

How easy do different Copernicia's hybridize? any chance to hybridize an alba with something else to get a colder hardy plant?

[Eric in Orlando]

That is a good question. I have never seen or heard of a hybrid with C. alba yet.

[sarasota alex]

Looks great!

[Mandrew968]

That looks like a regular baileyana to me. I see no sign of rigida parentage and no gigas either. Copernicia baileyana.

[Mandrew968]

Eric, the palm you posted looks no different than this one below, save this one is more silver and a seemingly a lot more happy(might be in a soil that is more to its liking).

[Mandrew968]

That is a good question. I have never seen or heard of a hybrid with C. alba yet.

The South American Copernicia(alba,prunifera and tectorum) are genetically too far from the Caribbean species to hybridize IMO.

[avanza]

I love copernicia.

[Jeff Searle]

I would like to add two points of view, first, IMO Eric's palms look totally different from Andrews. The colors are different and the leaf shape and the way it's cut just looks different.

And secondly, I had this hybrid from many years ago that I grew from seed. I did get many different looks from plant to plant. So when the time came to plant three at my house, I chose the 3 most different looking plants I could find. They were in a 10 gallon pot. Two of them are now approx. 10' in height, one having a light green color of leaves and the other with a more silver appearance. They both have a slender trunk, more like a C. alba or prunifera. The third palm I planted looks absolutely different from the other two, it has more of a look of C. rigida. Except with petioles. This one has been very slow to grow, where as the other two have been very fast and have been flowering for years. I think Eric, your going to find these will grow up and have a more slender trunk. At least my three did.

[Mandrew968]

Jeff, where is the rigida??? Where is the gigas??? So we mix these two palms and get a floppy bailey??? I have no idea where you are coming from. Both of the alleged parents have distinct traits to which I see NONE in the photos. How does the palm in this thread look different from the one I posted? Where is the rigida hastula? Where is the yellow color or the large leaf bases of gigas? Other than the floppy nature of it(which neither gigas and certainly not rigida display in any way) which could be from all that sand it's in, no doubt, and occasional cold stress, I see only the characteristics of a bailey. Macroglossa crosses show macroglossa--where are the parents????

[Eric in Orlando]

All I know it has been faster grower, has hybrid vigor. And more resistant to potassium deficiency which the Copernicias get easily on our sandy soils. We have a good sized C. baileyana and it looks different.

[Mandrew968]

All I know it has been faster grower, has hybrid vigor. And more resistant to potassium deficiency which the Copernicias get easily on our sandy soils. We have a good sized C. baileyana and it looks different.

Eric, I just showed you a bailey that is the same. Look past the floppy leaves. Eric, ever see a row of Bismarckia? notice how some are a lot faster--do they have hybrid vigor? No--some palms are faster than others. I am faster at sprinting than my sister... Is that my hybrid vigor?

[Eric in Orlando]

That bailey looks nothing like our "hybrid"

[Jeff Searle]

Eric,

Instead of repeating everything I just stated in regards to the history of (my) C. vespertillionum, which turned out several different looking palms, I agree with yours looking different. It doesn't look like a C. bailyana at all.

Eric, do you remember where you got your seed or plants from?

And Andrew, if you really think your pictures look like Eric's palm, you might want to get your eye sight examined.

[Mandrew968]

Jeff, you gave me ZERO explanation--so you allegedly have a few? What does that prove or even mean?! Jeff, you are the same person who questioned my blue rigida, until I showed you a picture and then all I got was crickets. You didn't even know a blue rigida existed(your own words)!! so I am gonna listen to you on anything Copernicia??? No I am not.

[Mandrew968]

That bailey looks nothing like our "hybrid"

Eric, maybe you could illustrate the differences that you see and we can work this out so that we both understand each other and where we are coming from? I am looking at the petioles and they are distinctly baileyana.

[Eric in Orlando]

Eric,

Instead of repeating everything I just stated in regards to the history of (my) C. vespertillionum, which turned out several different looking palms, I agree with yours looking different. It doesn't look like a C. bailyana at all.

Eric, do you remember where you got your seed or plants from?

And Andrew, if you really think your pictures look like Eric's palm, you might want to get your eye sight examined.

Jeff,

I remember seeing one at your house and it was spectacular. Being hybrid progeny I see how each one can look different, kind of like growing blocks of Mule Palms. I believe what you have to say about Copernicias.

It came from Broward Co. Palm Society sale at Flamingo Gardens. I don't remember who the vendor was, I wanna say Dale Holton. We got a Copernicia x sueroana at the same sale but it has been a much slower grower, only about 4ft tall now.

[Eric in Orlando]

Other than a faint striping on the petioles I do not see anything else that looks exactly the same; form, leaves, coloring, frond habit, etc. They are close enough looking that you know they are both Copernicia. But ours sure doesn't look like a bailey, with or without my glasses on. If you are not convinced and still argumentive feel free to come up an inspect it in person.

[Jeff Searle]

Eric,

If you bought it several years ago at the Broward sale, there's a very good chance it came from me. I had lots of these and C. sueroanas for many years. But it was a long time ago and I don't remember if Dale had some too. It's definitely possible. I'm curious how cold your getting in the morning tomorrow. But what's really nice about these hybrids, their extreamly cold hardy. Same as the Cyrtostachys sp. Hybrid that's out there now. With all your experience at the gardens and you growing palms for what probably 25 years or more, and my 30 years plus, we've seen many species and many hybrids come along. The beautiful thing about these hybrids is, they display many different characteristics from plant to plant. I love the floppy, open look in the crown. And yours looks completely different than my three. Thanks for sharing.

Edit.....just reread your first post and noticed it took 27 degrees. Pretty hardy!

[Sabal Steve]

Jeff, you gave me ZERO explanation--so you allegedly have a few? What does that prove or even mean?! Jeff, you are the same person who questioned my blue rigida, until I showed you a picture and then all I got was crickets. You didn't even know a blue rigida existed(your own words)!! so I am gonna listen to you on anything Copernicia??? No I am not.

I really like your avatar. Is that you being cradled by the large boy with the white shirt?

[Moose]

Perhaps two of the most renown palm collectors on Palm Talk.

Then there is a third poster who takes a position and refuses to admit they are wrong.

[Eric in Orlando]

Eric,

If you bought it several years ago at the Broward sale, there's a very good chance it came from me. I had lots of these and C. sueroanas for many years. But it was a long time ago and I don't remember if Dale had some too. It's definitely possible. I'm curious how cold your getting in the morning tomorrow. But what's really nice about these hybrids, their extreamly cold hardy. Same as the Cyrtostachys sp. Hybrid that's out there now. With all your experience at the gardens and you growing palms for what probably 25 years or more, and my 30 years plus, we've seen many species and many hybrids come along. The beautiful thing about these hybrids is, they display many different characteristics from plant to plant. I love the floppy, open look in the crown. And yours looks completely different than my three. Thanks for sharing.

Edit.....just reread your first post and noticed it took 27 degrees. Pretty hardy!

Jeff, both of those may have been from you. I can't remember the vendor on the tag. I forgot to write down who they were for the records. But that was almost 15 years ago !

We only got to 34F last night so no worries. This Copernicia saw 27 back in 2003. It also only suffered very minor burn after the 2009-10 brutal winter. The coldest temperature then was only 29F but there were 11 other nights below freezing, between 30-32. And the night it dropped to 29F it was below 32F for about 12 hours.

I have one small Cyrtostachys hybrid planted out here. I planted it this summer. I'm very interested if it survives. I have 3 others in the greenhouse so if it does well then 2 others get planted out in spring.

[Mandrew968]

Other than a faint striping on the petioles I do not see anything else that looks exactly the same; form, leaves, coloring, frond habit, etc. They are close enough looking that you know they are both Copernicia. But ours sure doesn't look like a bailey, with or without my glasses on. If you are not convinced and still argumentive feel free to come up an inspect it in person.

Eric, there is variation within the species baileyana. Color is one of these--not all baileyana are silver; most are green. For me to think you would think all baileyana look alike, does not bode well for being touted as an expert. Many times on this forum, we have made the notion that palms grown in differing environments leads to a differing look within the same species. I see no difference in form other than your palm is floppy, which is not a trait of either a rigida nor gigas. I would guess that, combined with your sandy soil and more exposure to cold temperatures, the floppiness look is hence manifested. The petiole shape and coloration/markings on the 'hybrid' look identical to the silver baileyana I pictured. If you disagree with that, then I know where I stand...

If there were any rigida in the parentage, the abaxial hastula would be much more pronounced than in either a gigas or a baileyana(even any Copernicia or palm, dare I say). Eric, is there an exagerated hastula?? If not, then I fail to see how we can even mention rigida as a possible parent. If this palm is a hybrid, then maybe the parentage should be rethought--it's not like anyone actually did the pollinating; we are talking about seed collection in Cuba, not inflorescence emasculation...

And one more thing, hybrid palms can also show decline--not all hybrids show the 'hybrid vigor' that is thrown around all the time. There is also such a thing as 'hybrid decline'.

[Mandrew968]

Jeff, you gave me ZERO explanation--so you allegedly have a few? What does that prove or even mean?! Jeff, you are the same person who questioned my blue rigida, until I showed you a picture and then all I got was crickets. You didn't even know a blue rigida existed(your own words)!! so I am gonna listen to you on anything Copernicia??? No I am not.

I really like your avatar. Is that you being cradled by the large boy with the white shirt?

If you are being sincere, thank you.

[Sabal Steve]

Eric,

If you bought it several years ago at the Broward sale, there's a very good chance it came from me. I had lots of these and C. sueroanas for many years. But it was a long time ago and I don't remember if Dale had some too. It's definitely possible. I'm curious how cold your getting in the morning tomorrow. But what's really nice about these hybrids, their extreamly cold hardy. Same as the Cyrtostachys sp. Hybrid that's out there now. With all your experience at the gardens and you growing palms for what probably 25 years or more, and my 30 years plus, we've seen many species and many hybrids come along. The beautiful thing about these hybrids is, they display many different characteristics from plant to plant. I love the floppy, open look in the crown. And yours looks completely different than my three. Thanks for sharing.

Edit.....just reread your first post and noticed it took 27 degrees. Pretty hardy!

Jeff, both of those may have been from you. I can't remember the vendor on the tag. I forgot to write down who they were for the records. But that was almost 15 years ago !

We only got to 34F last night so no worries. This Copernicia saw 27 back in 2003. It also only suffered very minor burn after the 2009-10 brutal winter. The coldest temperature then was only 29F but there were 11 other nights below freezing, between 30-32. And the night it dropped to 29F it was below 32F for about 12 hours.

I have one small Cyrtostachys hybrid planted out here. I planted it this summer. I'm very interested if it survives. I have 3 others in the greenhouse so if it does well then 2 others get planted out in spring.

I wasn't aware that a Cyrtostachys hybrid had been introduced - I thought that I heard somewhere that Mardi Darian had taken thoulsands of C. rendas in order to find a more cold hardy version. I'm not sure if he was experimenting with hybridization too? I'd love to hear more about it's limits, growth rate, culture, etc, as it becomes available. Any thoughts as to when these may be introduced in number? These are just a dream for San Diego still

[Moose]

Then the "third poster" continues his stance, still adamantly not being wrong (rarely), whilst insulting world renown palm collector.

Sincerely

[Mandrew968]

Ron, do me a favor, before I have to speak to the Mod and stop following my every move. You are creeping me out.

[Eric in Orlando]

thought that I heard somewhere that Mardi Darian had taken thoulsands of C. rendas in order to find a more cold hardy version. I'm not sure if he was experimenting with hybridization too? I'd love to hear more about it's limits, growth rate, culture, etc, as it becomes available. Any thoughts as to when these may be introduced in number? These are just a dream for San Diego still

It is Cyrtostachys renda x elegans, reports have it surviving into the low/mid 30s. It doesn't get as red as Cyrtostachys renda but shows some color. We have just had 2 nights in the 30s (34, 39) with a high of 48F in between so I am curious to see how the hybrid planted out does.

[Sabal Steve]

thought that I heard somewhere that Mardi Darian had taken thoulsands of C. rendas in order to find a more cold hardy version. I'm not sure if he was experimenting with hybridization too? I'd love to hear more about it's limits, growth rate, culture, etc, as it becomes available. Any thoughts as to when these may be introduced in number? These are just a dream for San Diego still

It is Cyrtostachys renda x elegans, reports have it surviving into the low/mid 30s. It doesn't get as red as Cyrtostachys renda but shows some color. We have just had 2 nights in the 30s (34, 39) with a high of 48F in between so I am curious to see how the hybrid planted out does.

Interesting. I'd love to see what they look like as a large juvenile/mature plant.

[Jeff Searle]

Steve,

I admit, I'm pretty lazy when it comes to taking pictures and posting them here. My largest Cyrtostachys sp. Hybrid is now about 9' I would say in the yard. As far as the Copernicia vespertillionum Hybrids, I would also like to photograph the ones in my yard ( no doubt from the same seed batch as Eric's ), to show everyone the difference looks these hybrids have. Including the ONE and ONLY person here that doesn't have a clue. The weather here this entire week has been very dreadful for doing anything outside. But for the many people that have been to my yard over the years might remember seeing these as they have grown up over time.

Jason out in southern Cal has made previous post on his Cyrtostachys hybrids and has more than favorable remarks about them.

[Eric in Orlando]

This one is the biggest I have seen. And they are actually Jeff's ! This was at the TPIE show last Jan., on the side of Jeff Searle's display.

[Mandrew968]

Steve,

I admit, I'm pretty lazy when it comes to taking pictures and posting them here. My largest Cyrtostachys sp. Hybrid is now about 9' I would say in the yard. As far as the Copernicia vespertillionum Hybrids, I would also like to photograph the ones in my yard ( no doubt from the same seed batch as Eric's ), to show everyone the difference looks these hybrids have. Including the ONE and ONLY person here that doesn't have a clue. The weather here this entire week has been very dreadful for doing anything outside. But for the many people that have been to my yard over the years might remember seeing these as they have grown up over time.

Jason out in southern Cal has made previous post on his Cyrtostachys hybrids and has more than favorable remarks about them.

Talk is cheap--clue me in; get some good photos that support your opinion. I would certainly appreciate it. All too often, you come on and leave sanctimonious remarks but show no support for your views. All I historically get is 'junior' remarks and 'oh, if you have been to my garden...'. As triode would say, "Take me to school!"

[Jeff Searle]

Andrew,

My talk ain't cheap!!! So let me explain something to you...I don't need to clue YOU in to anything! OK? And I don't need to support my my opinion to You, of all people! OK? And again, I don't need to support My views to YOU! OK?

And I don't need to prove anything to YOU ! OK? My 30 plus years in the business, my travels to many countries , my relationships with many, many palm enthusiast, my collection of palms here at the nursery and finally, my collection of palms in the ground ( of which you will never have the pleasure of viewing ) at my home speaks for itself.

You need to grow up and listen to others sometimes. You are one of those rare breeds that like to pretend you know it all. Well, you don't. None of us do. And you come across as very brash. Now, you can run back to the moderator to cry and stomp your feet to have my post deleted. At this point in time, I don't care.

But in ending........you and I will definitely discuss this matter further in person someday. Guarantee it.

[Mandrew968]

Andrew,

My talk ain't cheap!!! So let me explain something to you...I don't need to clue YOU in to anything! OK? And I don't need to support my my opinion to You, of all people! OK? And again, I don't need to support My views to YOU! OK?

And I don't need to prove anything to YOU ! OK? My 30 plus years in the business, my travels to many countries , my relationships with many, many palm enthusiast, my collection of palms here at the nursery and finally, my collection of palms in the ground ( of which you will never have the pleasure of viewing ) at my home speaks for itself.

You need to grow up and listen to others sometimes. You are one of those rare breeds that like to pretend you know it all. Well, you don't. None of us do. And you come across as very brash. Now, you can run back to the moderator to cry and stomp your feet to have my post deleted. At this point in time, I don't care.

But in ending........you and I will definitely discuss this matter further in person someday. Guarantee it.

Jeff, you think I want to go to your garden? I had a chance already and decided against it. I am sure it's very nice though! I think you should relax. Discuss this matter in person? How about you take photos and show me, online since I no longer have an open invite... Is that too much to ask? And why, when I implore such, do you get so devisive? I don't proclaim to know it all, but I am certainly agressive in my pursuit of the truth--do you know the difference? I really find it funny how bent you are getting, just because we disagree on the parentage of a palm. Don't you think that's a bit silly? All I asked was for you to 'school me' with pictures or other FACTS that you no doubt have?.. Good job with usage of the word brash; I take that as a compliment!

[Sabal Steve]

I think it's time we call Columbo!

[Ken Johnson]

Can anyone say for SURE who the father is in a hybrid Copernicia? Has anyone ever manually hybridized one? To make it more difficult when you get the seeds, some how, from Cuba do you even know who the Mother is? I have found that seeds from local gardens almost never look like the mother unless she is the only one around.

DNA will tell us one day but that day is not here quite yet for this question I don't think.

[rick]

Can anyone say for SURE who the father is in a hybrid Copernicia? Has anyone ever manually hybridized one? To make it more difficult when you get the seeds, some how, from Cuba do you even know who the Mother is? I have found that seeds from local gardens almost never look like the mother unless she is the only one around.

DNA will tell us one day but that day is not here quite yet for this question I don't think.

The future is here today!

With the right set of DNA primers and samples from plants with known parentage, you could have an answer in about 3-4 hours.

[Ken Johnson]

Can anyone say for SURE who the father is in a hybrid Copernicia? Has anyone ever manually hybridized one? To make it more difficult when you get the seeds, some how, from Cuba do you even know who the Mother is? I have found that seeds from local gardens almost never look like the mother unless she is the only one around.

DNA will tell us one day but that day is not here quite yet for this question I don't think.

The future is here today!

With the right set of DNA primers and samples from plants with known parentage, you could have an answer in about 3-4 hours.

LOL. The problem in this case is neither the mother or father was around to give a sample. Just some guy at a sale saying it this or that. I have seen too many palms that are labeled as one thing and grow up to be something else. BTW many hybrid Copernicia are very nice to look at... we just don't know who's the Daddy!

[rick]

You wouldn't need the actual parents just plants that are known to be certain species and not hybrids. These would serve as the controls. Figuring out the proper primers would be the tough part. Without going into too much detail it is essentially looking for DNA sequences that are unique to that species. Im not a plant biologist so Im not sure how difficult it is compared to animals but the process is the same. Once that is done you could take any hybrid and compare it the controls to determine parentage. This same method could be used to build DNA libraries for any genera that readily hybridize making identification difficult. Sounds like a long term project for the IPS.