Sabal causiarum speed of growth?

[Kostas]

Hello!

This past spring i got 2 very nice ~60cm tall Sabal causiarum from Basilios which he grew from seed 5 years ago i think. I am trying to decide where to plant them so that they can grow to their full potential without annoying the other plants around them. It would really help me to make an informed decision if i knew how many years it will take them to grow from 60cm total height to 2 meters of trunk and also about how much trunk they put on each year once trunking.

Are they faster trunking than Rhopalostylis or slower? Faster or slower than Phoenix canariensis in trunk gain per year?

Thank you very much in advance!

[Phoenikakias]

Sorry for my spontaneous reaction, it is just that it is so... slow growing in our climate which does not belong to the east coast pattern. The fastest grower among trunking Sabal in the med is bermudana. Please do not misunderstand me.

Hello!

This past spring i got 2 very nice ~60cm tall Sabal causiarum from Basilios which he grew from seed 5 years ago i think. I am trying to decide where to plant them so that they can grow to their full potential without annoying the other plants around them. It would really help me to make an informed decision if i knew how many years it will take them to grow from 60cm total height to 2 meters of trunk and also about how much trunk they put on each year once trunking.

Are they faster trunking than Rhopalostylis or slower? Faster or slower than Phoenix canariensis in trunk gain per year?

Thank you very much in advance!

[sonoranfans]

Kostas, the first few years(2-3) will be slower as the subterranean root system grows. After this they will speed up. Im not sure in your climate how fast they will be, but they are a lot slower before they trunk. I will hazard a guess that 2M trunk will take ~10 years. After than you could get 1-2' of trunk a year. In my experience the fastest sabal, hands down, is domingensis, way faster than all the others. My domingensis went from strap leaf 18" tall to 7' overall in two growing seasons. It now has its subterranean trunk and it is the fastest fan palm I have grown from a strap leaf seedling. I do live in florida, which is going to make it faster than in a Mediterranean climate. For sabals heat is a big influence in growth rate, and length of growing season. In my opinion, Causiarum is the most glorious sabal and one of the best zone 8-9 fan palms you can grow, good luck.

[Kostas]

Thank you for your reply Phoenikakias I have read how slow this palm has been for you unfortunately.

Thank you very very much for your reply,info and wishes Tom,i really appreciate it!!!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Kostas, the first few years(2-3) will be slower as the subterranean root system grows. After this they will speed up. Im not sure in your climate how fast they will be, but they are a lot slower before they trunk. I will hazard a guess that 2M trunk will take ~10 years. After than you could get 1-2' of trunk a year. In my experience the fastest sabal, hands down, is domingensis, way faster than all the others. My domingensis went from strap leaf 18" tall to 7' overall in two growing seasons. It now has its subterranean trunk and it is the fastest fan palm I have grown from a strap leaf seedling. I do live in florida, which is going to make it faster than in a Mediterranean climate. For sabals heat is a big influence in growth rate, and length of growing season. In my opinion, Causiarum is the most glorious sabal and one of the best zone 8-9 fan palms you can grow, good luck.

I agree, Tom is right, causiarum is one of the nicest to grow, the photo that Matty posted of his neighbor's sabal causiarum is what got me going on my sabal obsession, enough to plant almost a dozen. I am reposting that photo below. I don't know who the dude is, is that Matty or Matty's neighbor?

I am new to sabals, but I can relay what I observed so far. I planted a lot of sabals this Spring, among them causiarum and dominguensis from 15 gallon, and I put growth lines on all at planting time. Causiarum has been the fastest, with several inches of growth per month, but dominguensis is pretty darn close in speed and is a younger specimen, suggesting that what Tom is saying is right and it's actually faster. I was concerned sabals would be slow in my climate, but they seem to be doing ok.

Causiarum and dominguensis are both fast compared to some other sabal species like mauritiformus. My mauritiformus is just slowly putting out a new leaf, I will be lucky to get even one new leaf this year. All trunking sabals are supposed to be like kentias in that they are quite a bit slower until they form trunk, at which time they speed up. I don't have a single trunking sabal so I can't speak from direct experience.

One note about dominguensis: the plant I received had a fungal problem, which I fixed with some lime sulfur. This is only one data point, but it does suggest dominguensis might be more prone to rot in cold wet chill conditions. It was exposed to 27F in January at the nursery where I bought it. They are one of the most tender sabals at seedling stage, PalmKiller told me his got fried by 25F last Winter. Causiarum doesn't seem to have this issue, I think it's the best sabal to grow.

One last suggestion: water them like crazy. All sabals except sabal minor are drought tolerant, which means they won't let you know they're not getting enough water and will just go dormant (i.e. just sit and do nothing) in dry conditions. I've noticed that speed in my garden seems to be a function of how much I water them. I had a sabal riverside that I thought wasn't growing because of shade, but it turns out it was the lack of water that caused the issue due to the rootball drying out. Once I fixed the watering issue it took off gangbusters.

[sonoranfans]

Kostas, the first few years(2-3) will be slower as the subterranean root system grows. After this they will speed up. Im not sure in your climate how fast they will be, but they are a lot slower before they trunk. I will hazard a guess that 2M trunk will take ~10 years. After than you could get 1-2' of trunk a year. In my experience the fastest sabal, hands down, is domingensis, way faster than all the others. My domingensis went from strap leaf 18" tall to 7' overall in two growing seasons. It now has its subterranean trunk and it is the fastest fan palm I have grown from a strap leaf seedling. I do live in florida, which is going to make it faster than in a Mediterranean climate. For sabals heat is a big influence in growth rate, and length of growing season. In my opinion, Causiarum is the most glorious sabal and one of the best zone 8-9 fan palms you can grow, good luck.

I agree, Tom is right, causiarum is one of the nicest to grow, the photo that Matty posted of his neighbor's sabal causiarum is what got me going on my sabal obsession, enough to plant almost a dozen. I am reposting that photo below. I don't know who the dude is, is that Matty or Matty's neighbor?

I am new to sabals, but I can relay what I observed so far. I planted a lot of sabals this Spring, among them causiarum and dominguensis from 15 gallon, and I put growth lines on all at planting time. Causiarum has been the fastest, with several inches of growth per month, but dominguensis is pretty darn close in speed and is a younger specimen, suggesting that what Tom is saying is right and it's actually faster. I was concerned sabals would be slow in my climate, but they seem to be doing ok.

Causiarum and dominguensis are both fast compared to some other sabal species like mauritiformus. My mauritiformus is just slowly putting out a new leaf, I will be lucky to get even one new leaf this year. All trunking sabals are supposed to be like kentias in that they are quite a bit slower until they form trunk, at which time they speed up. I don't have a single trunking sabal so I can't speak from direct experience.

One note about dominguensis: the plant I received had a fungal problem, which I fixed with some lime sulfur. This is only one data point, but it does suggest dominguensis might be more prone to rot in cold wet chill conditions. It was exposed to 27F in January at the nursery where I bought it. They are one of the most tender sabals at seedling stage, PalmKiller told me his got fried by 25F last Winter. Causiarum doesn't seem to have this issue, I think it's the best sabal to grow.

One last suggestion: water them like crazy. All sabals except sabal minor are drought tolerant, which means they won't let you know they're not getting enough water and will just go dormant (i.e. just sit and do nothing) in dry conditions. I've noticed that speed in my garden seems to be a function of how much I water them. I had a sabal riverside that I thought wasn't growing because of shade, but it turns out it was the lack of water that caused the issue due to the rootball drying out. Once I fixed the watering issue it took off gangbusters.

Good information here axel, and your data from the bay area is especially interesting as you seem to get the heat up there that many coastal areas up there don't get. The water point is right on target with what I have seen, these palms like water in the root areas. I used to have a sabal causiarum that was 5 1/2' overall, but my neighbors incessant overhead watering across our border caused it to get a fungal infection, spear pull and slow declining death. My causiarum went from an 18" divided leaflet seedling to nearly 5 1/2' in 2 1/2 years, slower than my domingensis, especially when small, but it did pick up speed after the first year in the ground. My comments on the relative speed of domingensis are related to its growth rate from a strap leaf palm, even in a container. My causiarum was in a container for 2 years before planting out, and it was slow in the container and moderately slow the first year in the ground. After that it didn't seem slow to me, but rather a pretty good grower.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Kostas, the first few years(2-3) will be slower as the subterranean root system grows. After this they will speed up. Im not sure in your climate how fast they will be, but they are a lot slower before they trunk. I will hazard a guess that 2M trunk will take ~10 years. After than you could get 1-2' of trunk a year. In my experience the fastest sabal, hands down, is domingensis, way faster than all the others. My domingensis went from strap leaf 18" tall to 7' overall in two growing seasons. It now has its subterranean trunk and it is the fastest fan palm I have grown from a strap leaf seedling. I do live in florida, which is going to make it faster than in a Mediterranean climate. For sabals heat is a big influence in growth rate, and length of growing season. In my opinion, Causiarum is the most glorious sabal and one of the best zone 8-9 fan palms you can grow, good luck.

I agree, Tom is right, causiarum is one of the nicest to grow, the photo that Matty posted of his neighbor's sabal causiarum is what got me going on my sabal obsession, enough to plant almost a dozen. I am reposting that photo below. I don't know who the dude is, is that Matty or Matty's neighbor?

I am new to sabals, but I can relay what I observed so far. I planted a lot of sabals this Spring, among them causiarum and dominguensis from 15 gallon, and I put growth lines on all at planting time. Causiarum has been the fastest, with several inches of growth per month, but dominguensis is pretty darn close in speed and is a younger specimen, suggesting that what Tom is saying is right and it's actually faster. I was concerned sabals would be slow in my climate, but they seem to be doing ok.

Causiarum and dominguensis are both fast compared to some other sabal species like mauritiformus. My mauritiformus is just slowly putting out a new leaf, I will be lucky to get even one new leaf this year. All trunking sabals are supposed to be like kentias in that they are quite a bit slower until they form trunk, at which time they speed up. I don't have a single trunking sabal so I can't speak from direct experience.

One note about dominguensis: the plant I received had a fungal problem, which I fixed with some lime sulfur. This is only one data point, but it does suggest dominguensis might be more prone to rot in cold wet chill conditions. It was exposed to 27F in January at the nursery where I bought it. They are one of the most tender sabals at seedling stage, PalmKiller told me his got fried by 25F last Winter. Causiarum doesn't seem to have this issue, I think it's the best sabal to grow.

One last suggestion: water them like crazy. All sabals except sabal minor are drought tolerant, which means they won't let you know they're not getting enough water and will just go dormant (i.e. just sit and do nothing) in dry conditions. I've noticed that speed in my garden seems to be a function of how much I water them. I had a sabal riverside that I thought wasn't growing because of shade, but it turns out it was the lack of water that caused the issue due to the rootball drying out. Once I fixed the watering issue it took off gangbusters.

Good information here axel, and your data from the bay area is especially interesting as you seem to get the heat up there that many coastal areas up there don't get. The water point is right on target with what I have seen, these palms like water in the root areas. I used to have a sabal causiarum that was 5 1/2' overall, but my neighbors incessant overhead watering across our border caused it to get a fungal infection, spear pull and slow declining death. My causiarum went from an 18" divided leaflet seedling to nearly 5 1/2' in 2 1/2 years, slower than my domingensis, especially when small, but it did pick up speed after the first year in the ground. My comments on the relative speed of domingensis are related to its growth rate from a strap leaf palm, even in a container. My causiarum was in a container for 2 years before planting out, and it was slow in the container and moderately slow the first year in the ground. After that it didn't seem slow to me, but rather a pretty good grower.

So it sounds like your causiarum was also subject to fungal inspection. I am just curious, you know they swapped the causiarum and dominguensis a while back, right? it's always hard to tell if people are talking about one or the other. I can tell them apart now as seedlings, the dominguensis has this puffy look to the leaves, and is lighter green, whereas causiarum seems to be darker green, almost a bluish kind of green.

I think the idea that sabals don't grow even in the cooler areas of the Bay area is a myth. There is a large trunking sabal maritima in the middle of San Francisco, and it's healthy and growing even though a fellow steals the leaves to make hats. The palm is finally tall enough that the leaves will soon be out of reach.

The first sabal causiarum I ever saw was up in the milder parts of Seattle, that thing looked spectacular and grew just fine up there.

[MattyB]

Axel,

Can you please post some pics of the differences between young causiarum and dominguensis? How did you hear about them being "switched"? Last I read, which was a PSSC Journal by Don Hodel the S. causiarum could be distinguished by the "large papery liguels on the leaf bases". Is this the correct way to tell? An old time palm grower I know always calls them the opposite of what I know them as, meaning that he calls the one with papery liguels S. dominguensis. Anyway, the adults are confusing, but the seedlings are really confusing to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[sonoranfans]

Kostas, the first few years(2-3) will be slower as the subterranean root system grows. After this they will speed up. Im not sure in your climate how fast they will be, but they are a lot slower before they trunk. I will hazard a guess that 2M trunk will take ~10 years. After than you could get 1-2' of trunk a year. In my experience the fastest sabal, hands down, is domingensis, way faster than all the others. My domingensis went from strap leaf 18" tall to 7' overall in two growing seasons. It now has its subterranean trunk and it is the fastest fan palm I have grown from a strap leaf seedling. I do live in florida, which is going to make it faster than in a Mediterranean climate. For sabals heat is a big influence in growth rate, and length of growing season. In my opinion, Causiarum is the most glorious sabal and one of the best zone 8-9 fan palms you can grow, good luck.

I agree, Tom is right, causiarum is one of the nicest to grow, the photo that Matty posted of his neighbor's sabal causiarum is what got me going on my sabal obsession, enough to plant almost a dozen. I am reposting that photo below. I don't know who the dude is, is that Matty or Matty's neighbor?

I am new to sabals, but I can relay what I observed so far. I planted a lot of sabals this Spring, among them causiarum and dominguensis from 15 gallon, and I put growth lines on all at planting time. Causiarum has been the fastest, with several inches of growth per month, but dominguensis is pretty darn close in speed and is a younger specimen, suggesting that what Tom is saying is right and it's actually faster. I was concerned sabals would be slow in my climate, but they seem to be doing ok.

Causiarum and dominguensis are both fast compared to some other sabal species like mauritiformus. My mauritiformus is just slowly putting out a new leaf, I will be lucky to get even one new leaf this year. All trunking sabals are supposed to be like kentias in that they are quite a bit slower until they form trunk, at which time they speed up. I don't have a single trunking sabal so I can't speak from direct experience.

One note about dominguensis: the plant I received had a fungal problem, which I fixed with some lime sulfur. This is only one data point, but it does suggest dominguensis might be more prone to rot in cold wet chill conditions. It was exposed to 27F in January at the nursery where I bought it. They are one of the most tender sabals at seedling stage, PalmKiller told me his got fried by 25F last Winter. Causiarum doesn't seem to have this issue, I think it's the best sabal to grow.

One last suggestion: water them like crazy. All sabals except sabal minor are drought tolerant, which means they won't let you know they're not getting enough water and will just go dormant (i.e. just sit and do nothing) in dry conditions. I've noticed that speed in my garden seems to be a function of how much I water them. I had a sabal riverside that I thought wasn't growing because of shade, but it turns out it was the lack of water that caused the issue due to the rootball drying out. Once I fixed the watering issue it took off gangbusters.

Good information here axel, and your data from the bay area is especially interesting as you seem to get the heat up there that many coastal areas up there don't get. The water point is right on target with what I have seen, these palms like water in the root areas. I used to have a sabal causiarum that was 5 1/2' overall, but my neighbors incessant overhead watering across our border caused it to get a fungal infection, spear pull and slow declining death. My causiarum went from an 18" divided leaflet seedling to nearly 5 1/2' in 2 1/2 years, slower than my domingensis, especially when small, but it did pick up speed after the first year in the ground. My comments on the relative speed of domingensis are related to its growth rate from a strap leaf palm, even in a container. My causiarum was in a container for 2 years before planting out, and it was slow in the container and moderately slow the first year in the ground. After that it didn't seem slow to me, but rather a pretty good grower.

So it sounds like your causiarum was also subject to fungal inspection. I am just curious, you know they swapped the causiarum and dominguensis a while back, right? it's always hard to tell if people are talking about one or the other. I can tell them apart now as seedlings, the dominguensis has this puffy look to the leaves, and is lighter green, whereas causiarum seems to be darker green, almost a bluish kind of green.

I think the idea that sabals don't grow even in the cooler areas of the Bay area is a myth. There is a large trunking sabal maritima in the middle of San Francisco, and it's healthy and growing even though a fellow steals the leaves to make hats. The palm is finally tall enough that the leaves will soon be out of reach.

The first sabal causiarum I ever saw was up in the milder parts of Seattle, that thing looked spectacular and grew just fine up there.

yup, my causiarum was notably more blue and more compact as a young seedling. Causiarum also has more rigid leaflet tips, quite erect, no so domingensis. My causiarum came from Gary Woods by way of OsideTerry who visited my AZ place in 2009. My domingensis came from tejas in jan 2011, and I have two of them. The causiarum went from strap leaf to divided leaflets much sooner, the domingensis went this way much later, it was 30"+ tall before it showed divided leaves. My causiarum also took 28F x 2 nights in a row and two hard frosts without even spotting up. . From what I have been reading domingensis is not frost hardy at a young age, but becomes so as it becomes a larger juvenile. My domingensis was purchased after the 2010 cold event, at that time my causiarum was already in the ground, out in the open.

I had not intended to imply that these cold hardy sabals don't grow in the cooler areas, just that they are just slower there.

Edited June 26, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel,

Can you please post some pics of the differences between young causiarum and dominguensis? How did you hear about them being "switched"? Last I read, which was a PSSC Journal by Don Hodel the S. causiarum could be distinguished by the "large papery liguels on the leaf bases". Is this the correct way to tell? An old time palm grower I know always calls them the opposite of what I know them as, meaning that he calls the one with papery liguels S. dominguensis. Anyway, the adults are confusing, but the seedlings are really confusing to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

A few years ago, Don Hodel went down to Puerto Rico, and discovered that the sabal that was growing down there in the wild that everyone had thought was sabal causiarum had the papery leaf/ligule at the base and therefore couldn't be sabal causiarum. He double checked with Noblick in Florida who was the one that originally identified the wild growing Puerto Rico population as causiarum and asked Noblick about this. Noblick said that he made a mistake and somehow missed the ligule.

The conclusion: basically almost every sabal labeled causiarum in the US turned out to be dominguensis, and all the dominguensis turned out to be causiarum.

Don Hodel looked at Gary Wood's sabals and properly identified them for Gary, since he had both, it was a simple clear switch. BTW, this entire explanation comes by the way of Gary Wood from whom I've purchased a number of sabals.

I have an anecdotal story that confirms this. About 10 years ago I saw a beautiful large sabal in Seattle that one of the palm nuts was growing up there, I was told at the time it was dominguensis. But given that dominguensis is frost sensitive to 25F as a juvenile trunkless palm, it could not be dominguensis and had to be causiarum. That makes a lot of sense in the context of the name switch. In fact, if you look up the famous sabal in Seattle, it's now labeled causiarum.

Now about ID on the juveniles, I can share a few photos. Sabal dominguensis, sabal uresana and sabal blackburiana all share the feature that they have leaves that "cup" like a hand trying to hold water. Sabal uresana is easy to pick out because of the blue "bloom" on the leaves and the leaves have a very rough texture like sand paper. Blackburiana leaves looks like hands that are reaching upwards in prayer. Dominguensis has more of a horizontal cupping like it's trying to catch water coming sideways. I don't see the "cupping" on causiarum, bermudana and riverside. Rosei and pumos have narrower leaves also without cupping. Mexicana has some cupping but super smooth glossy leaves.

Below you can see the sideways cupping of dominguensis.

Below you can see the flatter leaves of causiarum - note how dark green, almost bluish they are. I have a hard time distinguishing this one from the bermudana, except that the bermudana has a lighter blue tinge.

I have two more potted dominguensis from Gary Wood, they match the picture above. So I am pretty confident in my ability to spot a dominguensis. but I would be hard pressed to be able to tell a causiarum from riverside or bermudana other than possibly by leaf color. None of those "cup" and they have almost identical leaves.

Disclaimer: I am new at this, and I don't really have much of a clue. Anyone else who can shed some light on how to tell sabal seedlings apart, please share your knowledge.

[MattyB]

Very interesting. Well, you may not be right, but you sure do have a keen eye for the details. I'll have to look at my Riverside, Causiarum, and Domingensis and see what I see. Mine are pretty small, so I'm not sure they even have character leaves yet.

So, just to clarify, the one with the papery liguels is now S. dominguensis? Or does that papery liguel occur on both species sometimes?

[sonoranfans]

Axel,

Can you please post some pics of the differences between young causiarum and dominguensis? How did you hear about them being "switched"? Last I read, which was a PSSC Journal by Don Hodel the S. causiarum could be distinguished by the "large papery liguels on the leaf bases". Is this the correct way to tell? An old time palm grower I know always calls them the opposite of what I know them as, meaning that he calls the one with papery liguels S. dominguensis. Anyway, the adults are confusing, but the seedlings are really confusing to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

A few years ago, Don Hodel went down to Puerto Rico, and discovered that the sabal that was growing down there in the wild that everyone had thought was sabal causiarum had the papery leaf/ligule at the base and therefore couldn't be sabal causiarum. He double checked with Noblick in Florida who was the one that originally identified the wild growing Puerto Rico population as causiarum and asked Noblick about this. Noblick said that he made a mistake and somehow missed the ligule.

The conclusion: basically almost every sabal labeled causiarum in the US turned out to be dominguensis, and all the dominguensis turned out to be causiarum.

Don Hodel looked at Gary Wood's sabals and properly identified them for Gary, since he had both, it was a simple clear switch. BTW, this entire explanation comes by the way of Gary Wood from whom I've purchased a number of sabals.

I have an anecdotal story that confirms this. About 10 years ago I saw a beautiful large sabal in Seattle that one of the palm nuts was growing up there, I was told at the time it was dominguensis. But given that dominguensis is frost sensitive to 25F as a juvenile trunkless palm, it could not be dominguensis and had to be causiarum. That makes a lot of sense in the context of the name switch. In fact, if you look up the famous sabal in Seattle, it's now labeled causiarum.

Now about ID on the juveniles, I can share a few photos. Sabal dominguensis, sabal uresana and sabal blackburiana all share the feature that they have leaves that "cup" like a hand trying to hold water. Sabal uresana is easy to pick out because of the blue "bloom" on the leaves and the leaves have a very rough texture like sand paper. Blackburiana leaves looks like hands that are reaching upwards in prayer. Dominguensis has more of a horizontal cupping like it's trying to catch water coming sideways. I don't see the "cupping" on causiarum, bermudana and riverside. Rosei and pumos have narrower leaves also without cupping. Mexicana has some cupping but super smooth glossy leaves.

Below you can see the sideways cupping of dominguensis.

Below you can see the flatter leaves of causiarum - note how dark green, almost bluish they are. I have a hard time distinguishing this one from the bermudana, except that the bermudana has a lighter blue tinge.

I have two more potted dominguensis from Gary Wood, they match the picture above. So I am pretty confident in my ability to spot a dominguensis. but I would be hard pressed to be able to tell a causiarum from riverside or bermudana other than possibly by leaf color. None of those "cup" and they have almost identical leaves.

Disclaimer: I am new at this, and I don't really have much of a clue. Anyone else who can shed some light on how to tell sabal seedlings apart, please share your knowledge.

Nothing you describe would indicate a switch on mine, not even one aspect.

1) causiarum more blue, check

2) causiarum insensitive to frost check(almost everyone reports a frost sensitivity of young domingensis seedling to frost, they ALL are consistent, what mixup?)

3) causiarum has leaves that are notably more flat, check

4) Domingensis leaves cup, especially as strap leaf going to character leaves, check

But if my domingensis would turn blue, I wouldn't mind...

two more,

1) as leaves approach the horizontal they tend to turn brown on causiarum but not on domingensis, check as my causiarum let go of the oldest leaves much earlier.

2) the ligules are only a good marker on the larger palms, I guess we will see.

I guess since no one is reporting causiarum as sensitive to frost the "mix up" is well in the past...

Edited June 26, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Very interesting. Well, you may not be right, but you sure do have a keen eye for the details. I'll have to look at my Riverside, Causiarum, and Domingensis and see what I see. Mine are pretty small, so I'm not sure they even have character leaves yet.

So, just to clarify, the one with the papery liguels is now S. dominguensis? Or does that papery liguel occur on both species sometimes?

Matty, I don't actually claim to be right, I really am still learning. I think I may have told the story backwards, because the papery liguels are on the causiarum, not the dominguensis. It might be best to go to the source on this and talk to Don. The switch happened a while back, by now the species in cultivation are mostly properly labeled.

Tom, all your observations are consistent with mine, I don't think any of your sabals are mis-labeled.

BTW, I now understand why I can't see any difference between my bermudana and my causiarum. My bermudana has the liguels, so it's causiarum also.

[Zeeth]

This thread helped me somewhat, as I have a causiarum and domingensis (the latter being from seeds collected in habitat) and lost the labels somewhere back so I have no clue which is which. Now I have somewhat of a better idea at least.

[Phoenikakias]

Kostas, the first few years(2-3) will be slower as the subterranean root system grows. After this they will speed up. Im not sure in your climate how fast they will be, but they are a lot slower before they trunk. I will hazard a guess that 2M trunk will take ~10 years. After than you could get 1-2' of trunk a year. In my experience the fastest sabal, hands down, is domingensis, way faster than all the others. My domingensis went from strap leaf 18" tall to 7' overall in two growing seasons. It now has its subterranean trunk and it is the fastest fan palm I have grown from a strap leaf seedling. I do live in florida, which is going to make it faster than in a Mediterranean climate. For sabals heat is a big influence in growth rate, and length of growing season. In my opinion, Causiarum is the most glorious sabal and one of the best zone 8-9 fan palms you can grow, good luck.

I agree, Tom is right, causiarum is one of the nicest to grow, the photo that Matty posted of his neighbor's sabal causiarum is what got me going on my sabal obsession, enough to plant almost a dozen. I am reposting that photo below. I don't know who the dude is, is that Matty or Matty's neighbor?

I am new to sabals, but I can relay what I observed so far. I planted a lot of sabals this Spring, among them causiarum and dominguensis from 15 gallon, and I put growth lines on all at planting time. Causiarum has been the fastest, with several inches of growth per month, but dominguensis is pretty darn close in speed and is a younger specimen, suggesting that what Tom is saying is right and it's actually faster. I was concerned sabals would be slow in my climate, but they seem to be doing ok.

Causiarum and dominguensis are both fast compared to some other sabal species like mauritiformus. My mauritiformus is just slowly putting out a new leaf, I will be lucky to get even one new leaf this year. All trunking sabals are supposed to be like kentias in that they are quite a bit slower until they form trunk, at which time they speed up. I don't have a single trunking sabal so I can't speak from direct experience.

One note about dominguensis: the plant I received had a fungal problem, which I fixed with some lime sulfur. This is only one data point, but it does suggest dominguensis might be more prone to rot in cold wet chill conditions. It was exposed to 27F in January at the nursery where I bought it. They are one of the most tender sabals at seedling stage, PalmKiller told me his got fried by 25F last Winter. Causiarum doesn't seem to have this issue, I think it's the best sabal to grow.

One last suggestion: water them like crazy. All sabals except sabal minor are drought tolerant, which means they won't let you know they're not getting enough water and will just go dormant (i.e. just sit and do nothing) in dry conditions. I've noticed that speed in my garden seems to be a function of how much I water them. I had a sabal riverside that I thought wasn't growing because of shade, but it turns out it was the lack of water that caused the issue due to the rootball drying out. Once I fixed the watering issue it took off gangbusters.

Axel, nice to see you back! About the mauritiformis mine pushes anually 4 or more leaves but all get eventually tattered by strong wind. Try some lime, or dolomite... just a suggestion based on my experience on the reaction of my mauritiformis to rinsed powder from pumice and gravel.

[Phoenikakias]

Kostas, here are some personal thoughts. Hispaniola (habitat of S. causiarum) has been explored by Europeans since 1492 AD. California (habitat of Washingtonia) has been explored since the mid of 16th century AD and the Canary Islands since the early 15th century AD. There is a temporal advantage of CIDP from S causiarum of about a century and of causiarum from Washingtonia of about half a century. But in Spain CIDP and Washingtonia are considerably more widespread in cultivation than Sabal and there are many places there, which are more favorable to palm cultivation than my place.I do not know if you are in to historical-classic sciences like I do, but it is advisable to read the book 'Guns, Germs and Steel' of J Diamond. This way you will be able to understand fully my argument. The best canary test is to see what the old horticulturists since centuries ago have selected.

I do not mean that Sabal causiarum won't grow in your place (both causiarum and domingensis are bullet proof regarding cold in our gardens), but since your main issue seems to be growth speed I am very sceptic with causiarum. One further thought is that since your garden is blessed by God to have plenty of underground water, this may promote significantly the growth of causiarum during summer, but what about during winter if this Sabal is (and probably really is) intolerant of wet feet together with prolonged cold? In this last issue I really can't help you, because my garden is like a giant raised bed due to the big inclination of natural landscape and of course lacks any underground water. Please give some consideration to above thoughts.

[Phoenikakias]

Kostas, I have gathered some information about the last issue in my previous post. A friend of mine has a real property in Nea Kios outside Nauplion about 100 m from coast with abundant ground water from 50 cm depth. There he outplanted a couple of Sabal palmetto some decades ago (same as the Sabal near the old railway station inside the city- he himself had bought all those palms from the agricultural faculty and also planted in both locations). Well the Sabal inside the city, where ground is very porous and lacks any ground water have reached one meter trunk but they get during summer inadequate irrigation. His own specimens in his property have started declining and it is speculated that they are intolerant in this particular climate of wet feet, now that root have tapped a permanent (and uncontrolled) water supply.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Kostas, I have gathered some information about the last issue in my previous post. A friend of mine has a real property in Nea Kios outside Nauplion about 100 m from coast with abundant ground water from 50 cm depth. There he outplanted a couple of Sabal palmetto some decades ago (same as the Sabal near the old railway station inside the city- he himself had bought all those palms from the agricultural faculty and also planted in both locations). Well the Sabal inside the city, where ground is very porous and lacks any ground water have reached one meter trunk but they get during summer inadequate irrigation. His own specimens in his property have started declining and it is speculated that they are intolerant in this particular climate of wet feet, now that root have tapped a permanent (and uncontrolled) water supply.

Konstantinos , thanks for sharing, that's a great piece of information. My garden is also on a hillside and there is an overall absence of ground water. The soil is extremely porous, so much so that the only place I have been able to grow avocados is at the very bottom of my property. The only thing that grows well on the porous soil on the hill are palms. I was worried it would be too dry on my hillside to grow sabals, but it sounds like that won't be an issue at all.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much all of you for all these useful information! Its great to be able to read so much on them and their growth,there is much to learn in this thread!

~10years is pretty fast for 2m of trunk,thats awesome,its exactly what i was interested to know! Do you find that its faster than a Bismarckia in trunk gain per year,about the same or slower? If the information i have read is correct,a Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) will also have about 2m of trunk in 12years from seed in Florida which would make them equally fast growers and thus not good for interplanting,is that right or not? Will it pass a Rhopalostylis baueri var. cheesemanni that currently is 1m tall or will the Rhopalostylis pass it? Will a small strap leaf Roystonea regia(the Florida indigenous one from the Everglades) pass my 60cm tall Sabal,the opposite or will they grow at about the same pace and interfere with each other? What about Sabal causiarum in relation to Beccariophoenix alfredii and Howea fosteriana? I ask because i want to see where to plant it so as to create a good layered effect and not lose valuable space. I also want to make sure that the green trunked species dont get their nice trunks bruised from the leafs of the Sabal,so i am very interested to know its relative speed with the nearby species.

Which sp. is supposed to have the papery ligules,S. causiarum or S. dominguensis? Are these visible in young plants like mine? I will take some photos of my plants and post them for verification if possible.

I dont think that a high water table is a problem to these palms or most any palms for that matter. In Florida,where they grow to perfection from what i have seen,the water table is quite high and floods are not unlikely. Also,i am growing Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) great so far,ground planted as a germinated seed 4years ago(with its growing center 30cm below the soil level,thus possibly under the water table for part of the year) and gone through one of our wettest winters a year ago,with 450mm of rain in just a month,half of which in only a few hours,successfully! I think Sabal causiarum should be at least equally if not more rot resistant and should do fine from what i have read,we shall see!

What you say about the discovery dates of the various countries from where our palms originate are very interesting Konstantinos,its nice to know!

I would think that the decline of the Sabal palmetto would be from the proximity to the sea or from something else rather than the high water table. If you see these in habitat,with all the water pooling nearby(the water table exceeding the soil in height),you will be pretty certain its not from the high water table! My palms usually start uncontrollably fast growth once they reach the water table because they then have unlimited water supply,they can suck to their growing point's delight!

Thank you very much in advance!

[Phoenikakias]

Thank you very much all of you for all these useful information! Its great to be able to read so much on them and their growth,there is much to learn in this thread!

~10years is pretty fast for 2m of trunk,thats awesome,its exactly what i was interested to know! Do you find that its faster than a Bismarckia in trunk gain per year,about the same or slower? If the information i have read is correct,a Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) will also have about 2m of trunk in 12years from seed in Florida which would make them equally fast growers and thus not good for interplanting,is that right or not? Will it pass a Rhopalostylis baueri var. cheesemanni that currently is 1m tall or will the Rhopalostylis pass it? Will a small strap leaf Roystonea regia(the Florida indigenous one from the Everglades) pass my 60cm tall Sabal,the opposite or will they grow at about the same pace and interfere with each other? What about Sabal causiarum in relation to Beccariophoenix alfredii and Howea fosteriana? I ask because i want to see where to plant it so as to create a good layered effect and not lose valuable space. I also want to make sure that the green trunked species dont get their nice trunks bruised from the leafs of the Sabal,so i am very interested to know its relative speed with the nearby species.

Which sp. is supposed to have the papery ligules,S. causiarum or S. dominguensis? Are these visible in young plants like mine? I will take some photos of my plants and post them for verification if possible.

I dont think that a high water table is a problem to these palms or most any palms for that matter. In Florida,where they grow to perfection from what i have seen,the water table is quite high and floods are not unlikely. Also,i am growing Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) great so far,ground planted as a germinated seed 4years ago(with its growing center 30cm below the soil level,thus possibly under the water table for part of the year) and gone through one of our wettest winters a year ago,with 450mm of rain in just a month,half of which in only a few hours,successfully! I think Sabal causiarum should be at least equally if not more rot resistant and should do fine from what i have read,we shall see!

What you say about the discovery dates of the various countries from where our palms originate are very interesting Konstantinos,its nice to know!

I would think that the decline of the Sabal palmetto would be from the proximity to the sea or from something else rather than the high water table. If you see these in habitat,with all the water pooling nearby(the water table exceeding the soil in height),you will be pretty certain its not from the high water table! My palms usually start uncontrollably fast growth once they reach the water table because they then have unlimited water supply,they can suck to their growing point's delight!

Thank you very much in advance!

In same property thrive several Washis, a CIDP and a theophrasti, last one growing at astonishingly fast rates. On the other hand beside Sabal, problems present also indian Phoenix spss (loureiroi and rupicola), which are adopted to a monsoonal climate. You forgot to read in my post the part about the prolonged cold season here. It is not to be compared by the SouthEast of USA, which experiences severe cold spells, but not a constantly cold winter time.

[sonoranfans]

Thank you very much all of you for all these useful information! Its great to be able to read so much on them and their growth,there is much to learn in this thread!

~10years is pretty fast for 2m of trunk,thats awesome,its exactly what i was interested to know! Do you find that its faster than a Bismarckia in trunk gain per year,about the same or slower? If the information i have read is correct,a Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) will also have about 2m of trunk in 12years from seed in Florida which would make them equally fast growers and thus not good for interplanting,is that right or not? Will it pass a Rhopalostylis baueri var. cheesemanni that currently is 1m tall or will the Rhopalostylis pass it? Will a small strap leaf Roystonea regia(the Florida indigenous one from the Everglades) pass my 60cm tall Sabal,the opposite or will they grow at about the same pace and interfere with each other? What about Sabal causiarum in relation to Beccariophoenix alfredii and Howea fosteriana? I ask because i want to see where to plant it so as to create a good layered effect and not lose valuable space. I also want to make sure that the green trunked species dont get their nice trunks bruised from the leafs of the Sabal,so i am very interested to know its relative speed with the nearby species.

Which sp. is supposed to have the papery ligules,S. causiarum or S. dominguensis? Are these visible in young plants like mine? I will take some photos of my plants and post them for verification if possible.

I dont think that a high water table is a problem to these palms or most any palms for that matter. In Florida,where they grow to perfection from what i have seen,the water table is quite high and floods are not unlikely. Also,i am growing Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) great so far,ground planted as a germinated seed 4years ago(with its growing center 30cm below the soil level,thus possibly under the water table for part of the year) and gone through one of our wettest winters a year ago,with 450mm of rain in just a month,half of which in only a few hours,successfully! I think Sabal causiarum should be at least equally if not more rot resistant and should do fine from what i have read,we shall see!

What you say about the discovery dates of the various countries from where our palms originate are very interesting Konstantinos,its nice to know!

I would think that the decline of the Sabal palmetto would be from the proximity to the sea or from something else rather than the high water table. If you see these in habitat,with all the water pooling nearby(the water table exceeding the soil in height),you will be pretty certain its not from the high water table! My palms usually start uncontrollably fast growth once they reach the water table because they then have unlimited water supply,they can suck to their growing point's delight!

Thank you very much in advance!

Kostas,

I have not grown the causiarum to a 2 meter trunk palm, so I am estimating that in florida it will take 10 years, not from a seed, but from say a 3-5 gallon plant(this is the size I put palms into the ground). In my sandy soil it is better to grow some roots, say to a 3-10 gallon size before planting, depending on species, as this will get faster growth. Causiarum is the one that has the ligules, but I have not seen them on several smaller juveniles up to 8' overall. On growth speed, my experience is that sabal domingensis is about like bismarckia, causiarum is a little slower. Bismarckias grow fast in florida, maybe they like the heat plus humid wet summers plus dry winters(like their native range). I also grew bismarckias(3) in Arizona, where it is even hotter, but bismarckia is almost 2x as fast in florida, the difference I see is a wet hot season. I agree with you on sabals liking water, I see sabal palmetto growing very well in swamp here in florida. I'm not sure about cold wet feet, but sabal palmetto also grows in zone 8a SE USA in places where the winter is more wet and not so short. I do see young sabals decline and die even in florida, perhaps poor nutrition leaves them susceptible to disease. Cold and wet feet will be more of a problem with bismarckia for sure. As far as speed of growth goes, I do try to maximize that in my palms with top mulch, soil ammendment, humic acid, fish fertilizer, osmotic release fertilizer and supplemental water when temps are warm. Perhaps my sabals grow faster because of it, but I see bismarckias growing in my area in public plantings, and they are treated with low maintenance, and are quite fast. I also rarely trim green material from my palms, NO HAIRCUTS, as these will just slow their growth and perhaps lead to poor health. On some other points, my roystonea regia are notably faster than any sabal or bismarckia, Im getting about 2'(+) of trunk a year(I now have ~13-15' of trunk on two royals). Royals really like water so they will be happy with your high water table. Beccariophoenix Alfredii are slower than bismarckia or sabal domingensis in my yard, I will guess they are 2/3rds speed. I do not grow rhapalostylis or howea, but I heard they are somewhat slow, but maybe that is because they are better suited to California, where things seem to grow more slowly. these species don't really like florida weather. Truthfully our climates are different, so I'm not sure how much of this will hold for you in Greece. Sounds like a great yard you are creating there! The alfredii is a large(wide) palm when full grown, so I would keep that in mind. The fronds on mine keep getting longer and longer with each new spear. Also very large are the causiarum and bismarckia, both can easily be 20'+ wide when adults. Best of luck, I look forward to reports on the progress of your garden!

[JimStPete]

What an informative thread this is about a really cool Sabal Palm! Thanks to all of you for sharing all of your experiences! Now I'm on the hunt for a sabal causiarum for my yard! The fact that it's huge and will not be damaged by our occasionally freezes are the big selling points for me with this palm.

[Kostas]

Thank you all very much for your replies and especially Tom for all the wonderful information!

Konstantinos,

I think what Tom said about their habitat pretty much sums it up. They do are found in swampland and even in cold swampland. Some palms do die even in habitat,it could be that they are less fit genetically,in a bad spot or plain unlucky and it could be for similar reasons that the Sabal palmetto in Nea Kios is unfortunately declining. I know of another(not 100 sure what species but has tallish trunk,small canopy,seems like S. palmetto) in Oreous,Evoia,has been doing great for years.

Tom,

Thank you very very much for all the information,very helpful! I know that our climates are quite different and will probably get slower results but its great to know about what to expect and of course the relative speed of this palm to others! Here are my two Sabal causiarum from Basilios!

[Kostas]

[Kostas]

The tip burn must be salt spray burn as Basilios lives right by the sea and gets strong winds with salt spray in the winter especially. What do you think of them? Are they surely S. causiarum or is there any chance of being S. dominguensis? Both are from the same seed batch.

My Bismarckia hasnt had any serious problems with my high water table thankfully and has grown very fast for me and what i like is that the bigger it is,the more it grows! This last year it slowed down much latter in winter and began strong,fast growth much earlier in spring than it did the past years! Here is a photo of it taken a month ago,its just 4year and 8months from seed and with the whole summer ahead of it to put on some serious growth before it gets 5 years old!

What % of the growth you get from your Bismarckia would you say i get here? I thought that i get about 3/4ths of the growth from the photos i have seen but you certainly know your Bismarckia's better!

Would you say that interplanting a young 1 year old Bismarckia seedling with the Sabal causiarum i have will work or will their canopies end up all together for too long and the Bismarckia will be too slow to take a clear lead?

I also mulch,use organic fertilizer and water it from mid spring,to mid fall,when rainfall is less than perfect, as it produces much bigger leafs when irrigated. I am also a big fan of your NO HAIRCUTS way of growing and grow my palms that way. Any leaf that gets in the way is just tied out of the way!

Thank you very much for the size reminding,they do get huge and its part of their charm! I read Beccariophoenix alfredii eventually makes 4,5-5m long leafs

I am glad you like how my yard is progressing Tom,yours is awesome already!!! Thank you for your wishes,i will be updating my thread with new plantings and new growth,hopefully in a few weeks!

Jim,thats a great palm,hope you get your soon!

[sonoranfans]

Kostas,

Your sabals are almost a dead ringer for Domingensis, they look just like mine did. My causiarum was not as robust at the strap leaf stage. It held fewer leaves. I have a pic of my domingensis at the same stage, just before it was planted out

[sonoranfans]

Here is my causiarum as a small strap leaf, the strap leaves weren't so huge. You can also see the blue in causiarum

Edited June 29, 2013 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

causiarum 24 months later. at this point it was in the ground for a year in FL. A year later it was 5' overall.

[sonoranfans]

Here is domingensis last month, 2 years after planting from the pic in post 26. This palm is not babied and is not in a wet zone of the yard. Last fall we had a 2 month drought and it took this pretty well. Its about 7' overall with this past year the fastest growth yet.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Here is domingensis last month, 2 years after planting from the pic in post 26. This palm is not babied and is not in a wet zone of the yard. Last fall we had a 2 month drought and it took this pretty well. Its about 7' overall with this past year the fastest growth yet.

Tom, that's a beauty, I love the shade of green this thing has. I can see your bismarckia in your front yard, not to diverge too much but please post a picture of it.

[sonoranfans]

Here is domingensis last month, 2 years after planting from the pic in post 26. This palm is not babied and is not in a wet zone of the yard. Last fall we had a 2 month drought and it took this pretty well. Its about 7' overall with this past year the fastest growth yet.

Tom, that's a beauty, I love the shade of green this thing has. I can see your bismarckia in your front yard, not to diverge too much but please post a picture of it.

Sure axel,

that bismarckia is my small one(of 2). It is a very waxy palm though. It was a pinkish hued abused survivor of a big box store 3 years ago. It had a spear and two leaves as a small 5 gallon. It turned out to be a nice palm, though I just pitied it when I bought it. Here is a pic one month ago, end of the dry season, showing some of the color, wind is blowing good so its flopping making those bizzie fronds in the wind noises, like a sail. Its about 8-9' overall

[sonoranfans]

Here is domingensis last month, 2 years after planting from the pic in post 26. This palm is not babied and is not in a wet zone of the yard. Last fall we had a 2 month drought and it took this pretty well. Its about 7' overall with this past year the fastest growth yet.

Tom, that's a beauty, I love the shade of green this thing has. I can see your bismarckia in your front yard, not to diverge too much but please post a picture of it.

I agree axel, the domingensis is a beautiful shade of green, just a little blue in it. I love my silver and blue palms, but some of green ones are really awesome too. And some of those blue/green or silver/green ones are among the most beautiful in late day sun. Nature supplies a wonderful array of color shades in our palms I have always felt that it's variation gives an improved perception and feel of depth.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much Tom for the photos and information! Beautiful palms you got there! Your Bismarckia looks especially awesome,hopefully mine reaches this size at the end of this growing season!

Hmm,thats quite a mixup since they are seed grown! Can we be certain mine are S. dominguensis? They sure look like it both from the pictures you posted and from Axel's pictures and others i found searching on the internet. S. causiarum seems to divide its leafs deeply from early on and have pretty thin strap leafs compared to how wide mine are. The black pot of the bigger one is 35cm in diameter,to give some scale.

Great to see such fast growth on your Sabals! If mine grow anywhere near as fast,i will be really happy!

Thank you very much in advance!

[basilios]

Hi guys. Since I'm the one who provided Kostas with the palms in question, I should add some info on their origin.

- The seeds were bought as sabal causiarum from rarepalmseeds.com, back in 2006. This means that the palms are 7 years old. But those specific seedlings that I gave to Kostas were the smallest ones, since they spent much time in small pots. I have a couple of others that are about 1 m. (3 ft.) tall by now.

- Here's a photo of some of them when they were 16 months old, posted by me on davesgarden gallery. Pay attention to the leaves' shape, but not to the color, since what you see in the picture is the temporary result of too much water, a lot of shade and really bad soil. Eventually, some of the seedlings (but not all) did start to display a bluish color, and still do.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/171528/

- They have never shown any sign of cold tenderness. Back in 2008, which was the last year my area saw a really freezing weather, my sabal seedlings were no more than 8 months old and came through low temperatures at around -3C (26.5F), and a whole day below freezing, without a scratch.

Tomorrow I'll post a couple of pics of the palms as they are now, and we'll probably reach a conclusion on their ID.

Edited June 29, 2013 by basilios

[basilios]

In the meantime, here's a photo of one of them, from 2009 (3 years old), where you can appreciate its actual color, which to my eyes is somewhat bluish. Not "bismarckia bluish", but not 100% green either.

Edited June 29, 2013 by basilios

[basilios]

And a shot of another of my sabals causiarum (or "causiarum") from 2010, at 4 years old. The color is even more bluish on this one.

[sonoranfans]

Basilos,

Perhaps cultural environment can have some impact on appearance. I don't think I can be certain of anything here regarding a positive ID. However, it is not lost on me that Kostas palm looks a lot more like my domingensis and not so much like my causiarum. The causiarum has more rigid leaflets, heavier texture, and the strap leaves never exceeded 2' with stem. I have not tested my domingensis to frost, I bought it after our cold snap in 2010(heavy frost plus 28 2 nights in a row). As I understand it, this temp 28F(or 26F) is not the issue with domingensis, its the frost. Im pretty sure my causiarum is a causiarum, here it is frosted six months prior to when it was depicted in post 28. So this palm laughed at hard frost 2 consecutive nights and didn't miss a beat. It could be I suppose that the very different culture these are grown under cause these differences. As far as the blue, my domingensis seedlings were more blueish when I got them, then they went towards green as they grew.

Edited June 29, 2013 by sonoranfans

[basilios]

Ok, here are a couple of shots I just took....This is the largest of my causiarums, 7 years old from seed, about 1.20m. tall. I believe it to be an average grower, not fast, but not very slow either. Of course if it had been put in the ground a few years ago, by now it would have been much larger, probably double this size.

[basilios]

This is another one of my causiarums. Not a great shot, but you can still appreciate its size and growth rate, since it appears side by side with an archonto cunninghamiana of the exact same age (7 years old), which by now displays about a foot of trunk. Actually both species come from seeds that were part of my very first order from rarepalmseeds in 2006.

In any case, Kostas' sabals come from the same bag of seeds and I must say that I don't believe rarepalmseeds actually mislabelled them.

Edited June 30, 2013 by basilios

[Kostas]

Thank you very much Basilios for participating in this thread and helping with more photos and background info! Your palms are great looking! Is your biggest Sabal 1,20m tall with or without its pot?

I also think its a little difficult for RPS to have made a mixup but in any case,it wouldnt be intentional. A mixup of S. causiarum with S. domingensis wouldnt be too unlikely,especially if what Axel mentions in an earlier post of his is true. Maybe these 2 species where sold interchangeable in past due to mistake in reading the species description or due to a seed collector's error or mislabeling. These species share part of their distribution range and thus you can see how a mixup can happen.

Do you maybe have a photo of their seeds? These species can supposedly be differentiated from their fruits and seeds.

I dont mind if they turn out to be S. domingensis or if they truly are S. causiarum. I like the leaf conformation and speed of S. domingensis very much but i also love the bluer color of S. causiarum. So its a win-win situation for me,i just would like to know for sure what they are so that i can plan their planting according to their relative speed of growth.

I look forward to visiting you again and chatting palms! Maybe even plant a few more in the ground if you like!

Thank you very much for your reply and help Tom!

My plants were indeed bluer when i got them from Basilios and probably the heavy rains and hail we had washed the wax off some. However,it was only a thin bluish sheen/tint and not a flashy waxy coating that stands out. The bluish tint on them was a very lovely shade of green/blue and in my photos is visible on some of the leafs and leaf parts but the base green color i think has gotten lighter on the palms,maybe due to getting more sun at my place than they were used to.

I dont know how reliable color is on telling them apart since so many of the blue species come in green versions too,thus i would say wax thickness may vary,even greatly. What may be more reliable is leaf shape on the various growth stages of the palm,assuming growing conditions are relatively similar. I dont know exactly the conditions my Sabal were grown under and how much sun they were getting but at least the bigger one in the black pot must have been getting a good deal of sun and wind exposure and shouldnt be too dissimilar to a palm of its size grown with good sun exposure. My other may have been more shade grown. I think the shallowly divided leafs look much more like S. domingensis overall,as does the fact that its the outer leaflets that start dividing deeply first and not the central ones like seen on your S. causiarum.

What do you think?

Thank you very much in advance!