Planting Bamboo beside Washingtonia Robusta

[Nakheel]

I have planted yellow Bamboo beside my Washingtonia Robusta(WR) Palm a year ago. The bamboos sprouted and have flourished.... but I am starting to notice my WR Palm leaves are yellowing. I do provide balanced watering and fertilizers.

My Question:

Do Bamboo tree leach other palms root around it? Could the Bamboo cause damage to surrounding palms?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Kostas

[Walter John]

Is it clumping bamboo ? What species ? Do you have any photos ?

[Cedric]

I haven't found that to be the case. Im growing Thyrsostachys simensis with palms at least, its strictly clumping. The small leaves form a very good mulch for anything nearby and not so nearby. However I throw sacks of organics, dead sheep and water at my bamboo, I love spoiling it as it rewards with magnificent thick towering neat culms, the more I throw at it the bigger the culms ends up. This of course benefits anything growing nearby.

I guess you will be growing either Schizostachym brachycladum or Bambusa Vulgaris Vitatta in Oman both clumping, you will get aggressive invasion of your palms root zone by the fine feeder roots. I know my bamboo's roots the very fine feeding roots (from even clumping bamboo) can grow astonishingly far from the main clump like a thick surface net into the top soil, uphill, side ways, around boulders.

The palm could be suffering from lack of water, those roots can make the ground on the dry side. So unless you're watering like a dervish (I knowyou dont have much rainfall)the area could be too dry as well.

Nakateel so nice to have someone from Oman here by the way, I miss Oman hugely. We spent time 4x4 up the wadis and mountains exploring and I truly loved it. As far as palms go I've never seen Phoenix dactylifera looking more at home in the unbelievably evocative, picturesque and stunning oases of Oman.I think in another life I lived there Im sure of it. The mountain oases are simply another planet to the one we all know. The peopleso friendly and strikingly handsom too.

[Nakheel]

Hey Cerdic / _Wal,

Many Thanks for your feedback,

Yes, indeed its a Bambusa Vulgaris Vitatta bamboos. I do clamp them once in a while. They are very invasive and keep on sprouting young ones...

I do however, water my garden twice a day: Early Morning and in the evenings during the summer season..

Attached is the picture...

[Cedric]

especialy from people in the hotter parts of California. For me I think its a bit on the hot exposed side and quite close to the mature P. dactylifera, there will definitely be some root competition there. Maybe they need filtered light when they're small like that in Oman where temps can go into the 107's F. Young palms get shade and shelter from mature stands in the wild or shade from steep sided valleys least a good part of the day, sometimes complete shade for part of the day, the mature ones have grown up into the fierce heat and are more or less always exposed least this is how I saw them growing wild in Baja California. Though yours aren't exactly burning.

I reckon they will be Ok as these are some of the toughest palms around, you could try a little nitrogen boosting fert see what happens (: sometimes thats all it is.

Are you using any pesticides, spraying for anything because sometimes that can do this too if the sun gets on it. Don't think the bamboo is doing much to to the palm at this stage, the palms roots will go much deeper than the bamboo I reckon.

[kahili]

Something not good is going on in that part of your garden, judging by the alocasia leaves. I am guessing that it happened fast too, whether it was extreme drying out of the soil around the alocasia or fert burn or some chemical sprayed. Not sure what-does any of the above sound possible?

By the way-that is my most favorite bamboo-good choice!

[Nakheel]

I see...

The only thing I spay on my tree is bi-weekly soluble plant food (Phostrogen Fertilizer)...

I guess I will need to build a screen net for sun shading and monitor their progress.. In addition adding more peat moss( soil conditioner) to retain water..

Many Thanks:-)

Edited June 22, 2013 by Nakheel

[Kris]

Hi,

I have a buddha belly bamboo beside a foxtail palm.both are pretty mature.and bamboo is groring well but during summers I have noticed that the fronds of the foxtail palm droops as though I have not watered it at all.

So I assume that even the fertilizer that I provide for the palms are leeched by the bamboo tree.when I find time iam going to chainsaw few stems of the bamboo tree to reduce its strength.I will post a video of that soon..

Love,

Kris.

[kahili]

The fertilizing shouldn't be doing it-unless your solution is too strong. Are you fertilizing the Alocasia as well every two weeks? You see what I mean though-with all the burned leaves on it? Did it just happen? It looks like a red flag of something to me-but maybe its just the Alocasia that it is happening/or happened to, although the Pritchardia (I think that that is what it is) to the right of the alocasia has a few really yellow leaves to. I am not familiar at all with your weather, but am assuming that you have really strong sun-but if the alocasia has been in the ground for a while and looked ok, then its not the sun-unless it dried out really bad and then the sun's strength would affect it-but only until it got watered well. Are you just watering the bamboo or everything along the wall?

[Jim in Los Altos]

Said, You mentioned that you are watering twice a day but for how long? I realize that you have a very hot, dry climate and I am guessing that your soil is sandy too. But if the duration of watering is too short, water won't get down to wet the entire rootball and there, of course, will be a high percentage of surface evaporation. Perhaps you can dig down several inches in that planted area to see if moisture is getting down to the root zones of palms in question

[Cedric]

One thing is for certain the Alocasia will definitely need some shade in Oman! This is the Middle East, on Tuesday it was 104%F! Thats 40%C even the gardener should be looking a little frail around the edges.

I think it's looking nice and tropical though. Maybe its just the time of year and things are feeling a bit heated and bleached, but I would spray any fert late in the afternoon early evening only and not in the morning because the morning sun can be very powerful especially trapped in a nice stone wall. It might be better not to spray but use it as a root drench.

That fert "phostrogen" works well for palms, its high in all the right places(IMO), I've used it weakly diluted on seedlings but not as a spray. It also works wonders on chem loving orchids like Vanda (as a spray) and some phosphate sensitive plants besides palms like hibiscus Rosa sinenis as a root drench or spray.

[kahili]

I figured it was hot! We get temps in the 100's (F) here as well, and I have never seen any of my alocasias do what is happening in the picture when we do get those really hot days. But maybe the humidity that we have is what stops any heat stress, and it is a dryer heat there?

Whenever you fertilize with soluble fertilizer, you should always drench the roots and not worry about the foliage as the plant takes in the majority of the fertilizer through the roots and not the leaves. If you are fertilizing by spraying the leaves only, maybe that might be the problem. I would also do it in the early am so that the soil/foliage can dry out some before nightfall, although maybe leaf fungi are not a problem there if no humidity?

[Nakheel]

-I did dig a couple of inchs around the Palm to allow water to fill up and soak down during watering.. but probably as mentioned its not deep enough to allow enough water retention during the hot summer day hours...

- Great info on Phostrogen plant food application! I used to use a spay pump and spray mostly on the foliage instead of the root ball area in the early evenings....that might be the issue! I will start to root drench the fert. now and see!! Thanks

- I am not really worried about My Alocasia. They normally welt in the summer periods between June and August and once the temp. drops September though May new fresh foliage's emerges and really florish....I have planted loads around my garden and had them planted for 2 years now as really small plants....Some pics attached(Off topic though....)

Edited June 23, 2013 by Nakheel

[kahili]

ok-well if that is normal behavior for your alocasias, then thats not the problem with your palm yellowing. The others look perfect!

So, if you are watering that much (once or twice a day) then I would start using a good slow release fertilizer with micronutrients included and forget the soluble fertilizer. Just topdress around all the plants that you want fertilized and when you water-you will be releasing a small amt of fertilizer each time. Using a soluble fertilizer isn't the best way to go here, and the reason is that when you water that much, you are going to leach it out of the roots reach within a day or so. So your plants are not going to have much access to it before its leached out. Its much easier, cheaper and better for the plant to use a slow release fertilizer and water. Different slow releases last different amts of time, you just have to know when to reapply what ever you get, But that is definitely the way that I would fertilize. Soluble fertilizer was made to be used for plants in containers in greenhouses where they didn't have to be watered everyday, and it is usually either used in smaller amts (continual feed) every time the plants are watered or once a wk with a stronger solution.

[Cedric]

Im not sure there is this wide availability of fertilisers in Oman that you can choose slow release over non slow release etc and with the right NPK and type of potassium etc. If there is or it can be ordered at less than a fortune that will be ideal. I don't think trace elements will be a problem in that dens loam soil but nitrogen might be who knows.

There is a large and healthy date palm agricultural sector so they will be using something that works on juvenile palms, maybe have a sniff around see what you can find at agri dept's or get info from the date palm promotion orgs on how to grow palms in the local soils. I know this is big in Oman these palms are almost a philosophy for the future well being of Oman and quite sensible it is to be so actively encouraging their planting IMO.

Actually parts of Oman are surprisingly humid, it's the coast.

Nakheel to get water to the roots if it's not penetrating any hard pan you might need to drill holes down deep and cover and use to water. People in Arizona might have some tips.

Your garden is looking very lush are those pics taken in winter? I think the young plms are just suffering from the high summer heat, June July August as you say.

[kahili]

Cerdic, thats great advice about checking with the growers, because I know that any commercial setup will be using slow release in any container gallon size and larger-its just too expensive and laborious to do soluble, and not necessary.

Well, if it has to be soluble, then I would do at least 250-300 ppm each time that you fert ( and be sure to weigh out the fert) and do it once a week if you are watering every day. Just get the fert down a few inches in the soil, at least. To really drench is going to be using more fert than what you might want to use at one time. See how that works for a few wks before you either increase or decrease the ppm. If you need help figuring out how much fert you need for that many ppm, just let me know and I can help you with that. But do try for the slow release.

[Cedric]

Actually spraying fert seems to work wonders on slightly older juveniles like these so its a bit puzzling. It could be just a water thing but i dont think thats all. Palms look different if they are too dry especialy palmate palms the whole leaf curles up and twists going brown at the edges.

I spray the hundreds of Vanda/Ascovanda orchids twice a week in high growing flowering season and quite often spray smaller palms along the way, as they react noticeably well to this foliar feeding both sides of the leaf.

I use a rather dramatic but highly diluted 17-0-45 that includes trace elements specific to palms actualy (this is just coincidental) and to this I add a spreader otherwise the fert just runs off. I only use stream water as we have one that hurtles through here, orchids prefer, palms aren't so fussed. The spreader is basicaly just phosphate free liquid detergent. Mine is sold as a dedicated spreader but you can use phosphate free dish washing detergent just as well, you just need a tiny ammount, like half a cap to ten litres.

Seriously in your kind of summer highs you don't want to be spraying in the morning you wont have any problems with fungal diseases spraying in the evening in Oman high summer. If its icy cold at night or day thats a different story altogether. Here we have rampant humidity and heat and I spray at dusk, this prolongs the effect of the fert as the orchids stay nice and damped down all night. For fungicide I only spray twice a year, this is going in and coming out of the cool season as sometimes you get a bit of something in the overlap between cool and wet and hot seasons, but its prophylactic mostly as I find I don't have fungal problems, the orchids at any rate used to be prone but through selection and merry-stem culture they're basically free of trouble these days. All of the above applies to the palms basically cause they get the spray too!

[kahili]

Cerdic-the orchids that you are growing have a completely different root system than the plants that we are talking about here. No comparison at all. A plant whose roots grow in soil can only take in small amts of fert through the stomata (pores in the leaves) and even then, they only absorb micronutrients-not NPK. So a plant that is only being foliar fed is not getting fertilized with the majors. Thats just a fact. No commercial grower foliar feeds-they either drench the soil using a soluble fert or they use a slow release fert. We would go broke if we foliar fed our plants.

[Nakheel]

This is very valuable info....

Very interesting mixing plant food fert with Spreader or phosphate free dish washer...How does that help?

I use slow release spike Jobs fertilizer for "Tree and shrubs" in all my palms as that is the only slow release fert spike available here...Last applied was in March this year,,

[Cedric]

Palms do respond dramatically to spraying fert, it depends on what you are trying to achieve, its not a way to permanently fertilise mature palms as its not enough mostly, but on small palms is very very effective. Spraying is very well received tonic boost and can be a life saver for small palms in pots deficient inlets say Nitrogen for example. The soil will have to be changed later as well as this will just happen again otherwise. But you will get an instant green up. Palms have nice large leaf surfaces too. In fact just do a test. I've no idea what they do in Raleigh NC but palm leaves certainly can absorb fertiliser applied this way, Nitrogen, Potassium and everything else like trace elements. Some deficiencies in mature palms will not respond so well to spraying fert or trace elements as the rate needed is too high, the soil needs to be amended.

No comparison to orchids, the fert I use is just the same one palms like a lot. I drench spray so the roots get some too anyway. But I use organic compost as a mulch the stuff works wonders especially on young slow growing palms. For adult palms I hardly fertilise at all as our soil is good enough, but if i want to speed things up or flowering or a palm particularly likes lime or something specific I use the appropriate thing.

Fertiliser spikes are a good slow release product. I've never heard of Jobes think they are American, are they for palms? General ones for foliage plants should work fine what is the NPK and trace elements? Ones for "High blooming" of shrubs like roses etc are not good as they are very high in phosphate (the middle number) and too much of this can in fact cause binding of trace elements and the death of a young palms if the soil is already alkaline.

A spreader and sometimes penetrator is something that makes the fertiliser stick to the leaves, its more or less completely harmless but it allows the fertiliser to stay on the foliage for a long time. Leaves sometimes have a waxy waterproof layer that repels water the spreader ensures it doesn't. Without it most of the fert on palm leaves will just drip straight off and is a bit of a waste.

Here is a page, its specific for Florida soils which can in parts be absolutely horrendous but it shows what can happen and how best to fix it http://www.plantapalm.com/vpe/horticulture/palm-nutrition.htm there are other better sites too I will look them up later.

[Nakheel]

Cedric,

Great info..Jobs slow release spikes available here is only for " Trees and Shrubs" they work wonder for all my garden trees and palms. It also did magic to flourish my once weak Ashokas!!!( Pic of jobs spike attached. for ratio) is that good enough??

I guess, I was wasting allot of plant food spaying it direct to my potted palms foliage without mixing it with something like a dishwasher solvent without phosphate? I do see it drip off your right.

Many thanks for your clear feedback...

[Cedric]

Nakheel the ratios aren't exactly perfect on these spikes for palms specifically and dont have trace elements though Im suspecting your soil is quite rich in these in Oman but you never know which in your area. As you say they are working so thats good. I would still go and see what the date palm producers are using in their production of juvenile and seedling palms cause that will be the stuff.

If you are interested in an abstract kind of way there is a recent thread on palm talk about the best spikes. But most of this is as usual only of interest to growers in America, the products will not be available to you without a whole lot of trouble. I don't know if Jobes does a dedicated palm fert or if your supplier is open to importing anything for you but if so there are indeed better spikes available for palms.

Look for anything with a low middle number that's usually Ok, and get excited if it has a high last number specifically about three times as much as the first roughly. I've used some very strange and interesting things on my palms with great success like tomato ferts in various forms. Here we dont have the range of ferts though suddenly we are getting a load of interesting organic products from Europe that are very promising for our soil conditions.

[Nakheel]

Cedric

Awesome info,,,, thank you bud!