What am I doing?

[Phoenikakias]

It should not be difficult for you to guess I think...

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Cool! What are you planning on hybridizing? The first palm looks like phoenix.

[Trava]

Roebelenii x dactylifera ?

[Phoenikakias]

Roebelenii x dactylifera ?

You were close Drazen, very close... But since this topic has been posted in the cold hardy forum, it is not a dacty but something cold hardier Problem is whether used pollen is still viable.

[Phoenikakias]

Cool! What are you planning on hybridizing? The first palm looks like phoenix.

Axel, both pants belong to Phoenix genus and they are fairly sensible to advection frost.

[Trava]

Than ,it is roebelenii x theophrasti.Am I first in the line for seeds?

[Phoenikakias]

Naravno, pod uvjetom da ona postavlja sjeme. Samo fige!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

That does sound like an interesting cross, let me know if it does set seed, I'd love to get some seeds too.

[Phoenikakias]

OK Axel. But first cross pollination has to succeed! Used pollen (gathered in ample quantities from my own theo with plently of punctures on arms and chest as a price) was one month old and maybe slightly older. I have observed that among cultivated outdoors Phoenix spss in my climate there is a strict order in the time of blooming every year, unless due to a whatever shock (transplant, cold, dryness etc) a palm deviates exceptionally from this order. So a cross pollination most times involves collection and storage of pollen. The project has more success chances if the female plant flowers second in time, cause it is a matter of one to three months for the pollen to be used. In the reversed case pollen has to be stored for almost a year. I have female Phoenix porphyrocarpa, which is supposed to be the cold hardiest next to theo. But it is female and blooms in the end of February to the mid of March, while male theo blooms in late April to mid May. So collected pollen from theo in year one can only be used on the next inflorescence of porphyrocarpa in year two. To many growers in colder and wetter climates, who can grow only theo but no CIDP this crossing would seem like the Holy Grail.

Now I keep the pollen in the fridge (not deeply frozen) but I am not sure whether this suffices for the conservation. I have observed that pollen used immediately after taken from the fridge has not so adherent capability (a trait of live pollen just like the movement of spermatozoids in mamals?). But it regains this capability when it finally adapts to the surrounding atmospheric temp. But I take container in and out of the fridge repeatedly to perform several pollinating procedures (I do not know when pistil is exactly receptive) and I am not sure if this affects further the viability of the pollen.

Anyway an interesting experiment and reason to look forward to fruiting.

[Phoenikakias]

OK Axel. But first cross pollination has to succeed! Used pollen (gathered in ample quantities from my own theo with plently of punctures on arms and chest as a price) was one month old and maybe slightly older. I have observed that among cultivated outdoors Phoenix spss in my climate there is a strict order in the time of blooming every year, unless due to a whatever shock (transplant, cold, dryness etc) a palm deviates exceptionally from this order. So a cross pollination most times involves collection and storage of pollen. The project has more success chances if the female plant flowers second in time, cause it is a matter of one to three months for the pollen to be used. In the reversed case pollen has to be stored for almost a year. I have female Phoenix porphyrocarpa, which is supposed to be the cold hardiest next to theo. But it is female and blooms in the end of February to the mid of March, while male theo blooms in late April to mid May. So collected pollen from theo in year one can only be used on the next inflorescence of porphyrocarpa in year two. To many growers in colder and wetter climates, who can grow only theo but no CIDP this crossing would seem like the Holy Grail.

Now I keep the pollen in the fridge (not deeply frozen) but I am not sure whether this suffices for the conservation. I have observed that pollen used immediately after taken from the fridge has not so adherent capability (a trait of live pollen just like the movement of spermatozoids in mamals?). But it regains this capability when it finally adapts to the surrounding atmospheric temp. But I take container in and out of the fridge repeatedly to perform several pollinating procedures (I do not know when pistil is exactly receptive) and I am not sure if this affects further the viability of the pollen.

Anyway an interesting experiment and reason to look forward to fruiting.

Even the pollination effort of the pistillate inflorescences has some collateral casualties, especially by the removal and replacing of cover bags. Nevertheless I enjoy it Am I a maso?

[Josh76]

Ouch!!

[edbrown_III]

 

OK Axel. But first cross pollination has to succeed! Used pollen (gathered in ample quantities from my own theo with plently of punctures on arms and chest as a price) was one month old and maybe slightly older. I have observed that among cultivated outdoors Phoenix spss in my climate there is a strict order in the time of blooming every year, unless due to a whatever shock (transplant, cold, dryness etc) a palm deviates exceptionally from this order. So a cross pollination most times involves collection and storage of pollen. The project has more success chances if the female plant flowers second in time, cause it is a matter of one to three months for the pollen to be used. In the reversed case pollen has to be stored for almost a year. I have female Phoenix porphyrocarpa, which is supposed to be the cold hardiest next to theo. But it is female and blooms in the end of February to the mid of March, while male theo blooms in late April to mid May. So collected pollen from theo in year one can only be used on the next inflorescence of porphyrocarpa in year two. To many growers in colder and wetter climates, who can grow only theo but no CIDP this crossing would seem like the Holy Grail.

Now I keep the pollen in the fridge (not deeply frozen) but I am not sure whether this suffices for the conservation. I have observed that pollen used immediately after taken from the fridge has not so adherent capability (a trait of live pollen just like the movement of spermatozoids in mamals?). But it regains this capability when it finally adapts to the surrounding atmospheric temp. But I take container in and out of the fridge repeatedly to perform several pollinating procedures (I do not know when pistil is exactly receptive) and I am not sure if this affects further the viability of the pollen.

Anyway an interesting experiment and reason to look forward to fruiting.

Even the pollination effort of the pistillate inflorescences has some collateral casualties, especially by the removal and replacing of cover bags. Nevertheless I enjoy it Am I a maso?

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Good show you got off light for Phoenix!

Best regards

Ed

[Kostas]

Its great to hear there is a strict order in blooming times on your Phoenix sp.! On what order do your Phoenix sp. flower and which months each of them?

Thank you very much in advance!

[gyuseppe]

Konstantinos is roebelenii x theophrasti?

[Phoenikakias]

Its great to hear there is a strict order in blooming times on your Phoenix sp.! On what order do your Phoenix sp. flower and which months each of them?

Thank you very much in advance!

Exact time depends on weather during previous winter, but that affects all palms. CIDP early spring, theo mid to late spring, dacty late spring, loureiroi late spring to early summer, rob early summer to mid summer, reclinata mid summer.

[Phoenikakias]

Konstantinos is roebelenii x theophrasti?

One of the cross pollination attempts is this. Also P.hanceana X P. theophrastii and P. hanceana X Phoenix loureiroi.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the flowering times information! Which Phoenix species do you find that overlap in their flowering,either always or occasionally,with Phoenix canariensis and P. theophrastii,and thus offer chances for random hybridization?

Thank you very much in advance!

[Phoenikakias]

Thank you very much for the flowering times information! Which Phoenix species do you find that overlap in their flowering,either always or occasionally,with Phoenix canariensis and P. theophrastii,and thus offer chances for random hybridization?

Thank you very much in advance!

I have to clarify the restrictions of my statement. I refer only to palms in my climate (that is of Attica Greece), growing many years outdoors in the same place. If you move out a palm growing in a greenhouse or import a palm from another climate above conclusion may and most probably will not apply.Maybe dactylifera may overlap with theophrastii like an early dactylifera pistillate inflorescence and and a delayed theophrastii staminate one, especially when theo's main stem or a sucker blooms for the first time. Relevant to it may be my observation that staminate roebelenii begins blooming a couple of weeks earlier than pistillate, if that applies also on other P. spss then, natural cross pollination becomes even more improbable, since nature itself has taken own measures. Just observe how many mature pistillate dactys in our country have pollinated fruits, if no male dacty grows in proximity, but a lot of male CIDP's. I have never observed not a single pollinated fruit. It is one thing whether dates can reach maturity in our climate, and totally another if they are pollinated. Furthermore I have the suspicion that pistillate inflorescences of P. spss to the contrary to other palms have a very early receptive stigma, that is by the time the spath splits and not when flowerstalk fully develops. If latter is true this is another natural obstacle to a cross polinnation from a later blooming staminate exemplary of another P. sp.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply and information! Of course when getting a new palm,blooming for the first time,etc timing maybe be off but its great that once established they bloom in an order that excludes hybridization!

So you find absolutely no overlap between P. canariensis,P. dactylifera and P. roebelinii in you garden?

[Phoenikakias]

So far no! But I am always open to surprises...

[Kostas]

Thanks

[gyuseppe]

in botanical garden, I saw only phoenix reclinata and phoenix roebelenii bloom during the same months, but not always

[Phoenikakias]

Absolutely correct Giuseppe! Naples and Attica have a very similiar climate, I have read this in an article of an old greek newspaper from the early 20th century.Nice (France) and Barcelona (Spain) have different climate. Past two years in my garden reclinata and roebeleni coincided partly in blooming times. This year I do not think so, maybe because previous winter was mild and spring dry.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[sergiskan]

those hybrids sound good!

good luck!