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Castrating Palm Fronds


freekypalmguy

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Redant's post about removing a palms fruit early and the effects on it's growth made me think about something else.

Does cutting a palms fronds early promote upward growth and a thinner trunk?(also, as a palm rookie, is frond the proper term?)

Looking at a bunch of different CIDP's I see a huge difference in the diameter of the trunk from one to another. What causes this?

Does the weight of the more mature fronds pulling outward on the palm promote a larger diameter trunk?

I planted two CIDP's on either side of the entrance to my house and have to trim them early unitill they get enough height to drive under. Am I slowing their upward movement by doing this?

Hmmmmm........

Matt from Temecula, CA, 9b

Some Pics

Cycads

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Without being an expert on the subject, I have heard relatively that it is best to wait until the front is just about completely toasted before removing. The palm removes nutrition from the dying frond and thus is better to leave it in place. If you wait to long and the frond turns totally crisp it is much more difficult to remove.

Queens that frequently get over trimmed get what is called "pencil topped"; the crown area becomes very thin like a sharpened pencil and is very vulnerable to wind damage. It also is not a good look IMO.

Jupiter FL

in the Zone formally known as 10A

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Some palms recover rather quickly from leaf-destroying fires in their native habitat.  Here's a pdf of a scientific paper on fire recovery in Serenoa repens and Sabal etonia:

Archbold Biological Station--Abrahamson & Abrahamson

Tom Broome (cycadjungle) has developed some tricks for manipulating cycad growth by removing leaves, but cycads operate differently from palms.  They push out a whole new set of leaves at once (whew!) rather than one-at-a-time.  

I'm pretty certain that with very few exceptions, your palms will be happy and grow faster if leaves are removed only when they're mostly brown.  But CIDPs are resilient, so I'd expect them to do fine even with some trimming.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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(redant @ Jan. 31 2007,13:14)

QUOTE
"The palm removes nutrition from the dying frond and thus is better to leave it in place"

Although I understand this is the case, would it not be a "wash" or a "non issue" if you were supplementing with fertilizer. Is there something about receiving nutrition from the dying leaves that make it a better source of nutrition than absorbing nutrients via the roots? I have always wondered this as looking at dying leaves is not very attractive.

That being said, We have some god-awful tree trimmers here cutting everything except a few sprigs thinking that is going to help the plant in some way. I think the question is does the removal of a few lower leaves occasionally help speed trunk growth if the plant is watered and fertilized adequately to cover any loss of nutrients by said dying fronds?

I also have something to add to this post that has always been on my mind. I don't particuarly like the way the inflorescence looks on many palm species. If I don't want the seeds, and don't like the look, is it better to cut the inflorecence early or late in seed production.

Also, does cutting inflorecence too close to the trunk make the fronds above the cut "relax" by not having the inflorecence below it to brace it in a more vertical position. Would it be better to allow the stem of the inflorecence to remain, and only cut at that point of where the seeds are located (i.e as far down the inflorecence as possible) would this provide more stability to the fronds above it.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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I have provided links to some info in the past..., not with me right now.  But, "brown and down " is a good rule to live by.

Also, if by some chance you don't have the correct ratio or correct fertiliser of "what the palm wants", then it may take some

time for the palm to uptake the right nutrients.  In the mean time it can live a little off of what it had before..

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Ok, so the consensus seams to be that it is better to not trim untill the fronds are brown.

Does trimming earlier affect trunk diameter of a CIDP?

thank you for all the replies.

Matt from Temecula, CA, 9b

Some Pics

Cycads

Temecula.gif

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Dear guys CIDP is grown for ornemental or for fashion

and not to reep rich harvest of edible dates.so take the

cutting spears or chainsaw and give that rough baby a

clean shave.do not allow the leaves to go brown or even

droup.because to climb-up the tree will it self would be an

herculiean task.and our guys once posted reports that

some guys suffocated & collapsed due to lack of oxygen

while trimming this baby.

My observation is that the more you trim the fronds the more

taller it grows in a brief period of time.as for the health of the

palms,i do not know what its effects will be long term.

but iam conserned who this palm looks in my life time.since

after we have gone what our children & grandchildren will do

to these palms_god only knows !

because taste differs from person to person !

hey if you are a Phoenix Lover then go to this site_

http://www.datepalm.com/palminfo/canary.asp

http://www.datepalm.com/palminfo/canary.asp

and that is what i call it as proper trimming,make the baby look like a pinapple or Dr.Alban's hair style  :D

And untrimmed plants & palms are safe heaven for parasites,

migratory bird nest,unwanted trees grow & finally the CIDP

seeds also sprouts all around the untrimmed trunk.its horrible

to see such Palms.

Love,

Kris.

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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We just had some unusually strong winds here on Oahu, and I have observed that some high-pruned coconut palms on one property had many snapped fronds while the unpruned coconut palms on the same property did not appear to suffer any damage.  It has been suggested that palm fronds help to stablize each other in strong winds, and my guess is that a palm that is pruned to a high angle has its fronds more exposed to a more radical range of motion during storms.  A couple of studies on oil palm found that pruned palms broke had higher rates of crown fracture.  Many are convinced that pruning can cause stem tapering over time, although there are no controlled experiments that i could find to have tested this.  Another apparent symptom is reduced frond size and reduced crown density of future fronds (leaves).  You can see queen palms in california that are routinely pruned generally showing shorter fronds than those that are not regularly pruned.   I think that pruning may accelerate leaf production (and therefore verticle growth), but the leaves are likely to be shorter and shorter over time and perhaps the trunk more tapered too.  But I don't think initial pruning until the palm gains enough height to be able to walk past is necessarily going to be a problem.  I wouldn't keep it up any longer than you have too, though.

Why not live in the tropics?

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Aloha Eric,

I wholeheartedly agree with your observations on palm, pruning.  If only we could successfully influence city and county trimmers and the non-certfied arborists to see the light.  It seems to be a wide-spread problem at least all over O`ahu and California.  I have seen hundreds of CIDP in Pasadena, California that have frighteningly thin tapers on their trunks and similar tapers on Coconut palms here.

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That sounds like some good advice.

I want to be able to drive into my house without driving through the fronds, so for now, I will trim them to keep it that way, then once clear I will leave the palm with more of a head only trimming as they start to brown.

Hmmmm.....I might even try an experiment with a couple of my other CIDP's.

Matt from Temecula, CA, 9b

Some Pics

Cycads

Temecula.gif

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Generally, palms are happier when you wait until the leaves turn brown before removing them, though you might want to remove them sooner, as when you have a specimen in a pot in a very prominent place.

Also, waiting works better as a practical matter, because, as your palm collection grows, time to "trim" becomes scarcer and scarcer and you find yourself removing a number of dead leaves when you get around to it. . . .

dave

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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I only trim my queen once a year. It has 20+ leaves, and I cut about 4 off every spring. Every year it's fuller than the year before. Most of the "pencil sharpners" are doing the same thing, only they are working on a queen with 5 leaves that they proceed to lop all but 2 leaves off every year. Leave that thing alone for a few years!

With palms it seems to me the more you trim the sooner the oldest leaf turns brown, and the sooner you have to trim again. Eventually you are down to a spear, and 2 green leaves. Anyone else experience that?

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Osideterry, that's a very interesting observation!  I'm eager to do some controlled experiments where we can see how much faster fronds may descend and senesce (die off) after pruning vs. without pruning.  Obviously, with the force of gravity and no lower fronds to lend support, the lowest fronds after pruning may be hypothetically under more physical stress to come downward.  Such an easy experiment to do!  

Jacob, it was great to finally meet you in person!  You're a real nice guy, and I'm sorry if I got too long-winded on the alien vs. native species issue  :P

Yes, we will get more info out to the public about these pruning concerns.  In fact, I just took some time today with the people over at that property I mentioned in my last post, and I took photos of their palms to document the results of the winds.  They were quite friendly and interested to learn about the issue (of course, they want healthy trees).

Why not live in the tropics?

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