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#1 Surf Guy

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:08 PM

I finally planted my mad fox today. I got it late last summer and waited until today to plant it. I hope I planted it the right spot. It'll get sun in the summer and full shade in the winter. I have it under a shadecloth tent for now until I get some canopy from the palms around it. Wish me luck!


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Mike Hegger
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#2 edric

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:45 AM

Hi Mike, you know it's an understory palm, and will require filtered light for the next twenty years, even in Hawaii, for best appearance, Bill will tell you all about it, Ed
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#3 edric

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:06 AM

Hi Mike, also full shade, for more tan 60 days, may not be helpful to this species, Ed
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#4 Walter John

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:06 PM

luck be with you..
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#5 Palmlover

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

That's a good looking Madfox. Did you get it from George? I planted a much smaller than yours last year that gets filtered light most of the day. Its doing pretty good, so far it put out two new fronds. I plan on planting another one in a few weeks. It seems these do well planted!
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#6 ellidro

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

Its not an "understory" palm that would require year around shade. I have had one in the ground for a few years in what would probably be half day shade and it looks flawless. I think full summer sun might be too much but too much shade will really slow it down. When did Bill become the authority on how to grow this? :mrlooney:
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#7 ellidro

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:06 PM

Here's a year old pic of mine.

IMG_0286.jpg
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#8 Surf Guy

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:39 PM

Palmlover....I got it from Ron Lawyer late last summer. It's in a spot where it will receive filtered light, once I have canopy, in the summer and full shade if the winter. Until I have canopy it will be protected by 75% shadecloth. Hopefully I don't kill it.
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Mike Hegger
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4 miles from coast

#9 Surf Guy

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:40 PM

By the way...Eliidro your's looks awesome!
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Mike Hegger
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#10 DippyD

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:15 PM

dont want to switch the topic up but you have a updated photo nick? your palm is my favorite palm to see, i remember when it was a fresh planting.

mike, good luck. hopefully your canopy will give it filtered light. like nick said its definitely not an understory palm.
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#11 Gtlevine

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

Here's a year old pic of mine.

IMG_0286.jpg

I saw this in person, WHOOOOOOOAAA!!!!!
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#12 Palmlover

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:00 PM

Surf guy, your Madfox should do great!
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#13 Surf Guy

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

Thanks for the encouragement palmlover. I hope that the full shade in the winter isn't detrimental to it. At least it's in the ground and has about six or seven months to acclimate.
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#14 ellidro

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:33 PM

I think you'll be fine with the shade, it just likely will not grow as quick as it would in filtered light. I think Bo had one growing in deep shade in a ravine and it looked good.
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#15 BS Man about Palms

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:35 PM

Ed has given me more credit than due in this case.. :)







i am pretty sure mine has slowed/recovering from a particularly rabid ravishing of my mad foxes root system.. :(
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#16 edric

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:09 AM

Its not an "understory" palm that would require year around shade. I have had one in the ground for a few years in what would probably be half day shade and it looks flawless. I think full summer sun might be too much but too much shade will really slow it down. When did Bill become the authority on how to grow this? :mrlooney:


Please look in the index, under D. marojejyi, and see what J. dransfield has to say, you stand corrected, Ed

http://palmweb.org/
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#17 edric

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:21 AM

Ed has given me more credit than due in this case.. :)







i am pretty sure mine has slowed/recovering from a particularly rabid ravishing of my mad foxes root system.. :(

Hi Bill, I didn't mean you would tell them all about its Taxonomy, I meant you would tell them all about your experience with the lighting conditions in question, thanks, Ed
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#18 ellidro

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:17 AM


Its not an "understory" palm that would require year around shade. I have had one in the ground for a few years in what would probably be half day shade and it looks flawless. I think full summer sun might be too much but too much shade will really slow it down. When did Bill become the authority on how to grow this? :mrlooney:


Please look in the index, under D. marojejyi, and see what J. dransfield has to say, you stand corrected, Ed

http://palmweb.org/



Its great to hear from John Dransfield, he is obviously the most educated and well known Madagascar Botanist we know but has he grown one? More particular has he grown one in Encinitas on my street? General descriptions of a palm and growing conditions are great but I would say the proof is in the pudding with my palm. Feel free to post some pics of yours in your climate.
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#19 edric

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:47 AM



Its not an "understory" palm that would require year around shade. I have had one in the ground for a few years in what would probably be half day shade and it looks flawless. I think full summer sun might be too much but too much shade will really slow it down. When did Bill become the authority on how to grow this? :mrlooney:


Please look in the index, under D. marojejyi, and see what J. dransfield has to say, you stand corrected, Ed

http://palmweb.org/


How old is Dean's palm? it's the largest one in cultivation, is it not, how tall is Dean's palm, 4 or 5 feet tall? that's what I was going by, it wasn't untill you said something, that I looked on Palmweb, Ed
Its great to hear from John Dransfield, he is obviously the most educated and well known Madagascar Botanist we know but has he grown one? More particular has he grown one in Encinitas on my street? General descriptions of a palm and growing conditions are great but I would say the proof is in the pudding with my palm. Feel free to post some pics of yours in your climate.


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#20 ellidro

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:22 AM

Not speaking for Dean but I believe Jeff Marcus has the largest one in Cultivation and the last time I saw it, it was head high and I'm not sure its done growing.
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#21 ellidro

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:02 AM

Jeff's plant about a year and a half ago.

http://www.palmpedia...ile:MadFox5.jpg
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#22 edric

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

But to say that the botanists at Kew don't know, because they haven't grown one, is a very foolish statement, they're in England, palm trees don't grow in England, so if what you said was true, then they don't know anything about any palm trees at all, Ed
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#23 Dypsisdean

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 01:40 PM

I was going to stay on the sidelines until my ears started burning. :)

Jeff's plant is still the largest in Hawaii with almost two feet of trunk these days I believe. Mine only has about 6 inches.

My feelings on growing them are as follows. And I happen to agree with Nick on this one. I would listen to experienced growers and collective observations from cultivated gardens regarding cultural requirements and growing techniques before many botanists - and this is not meant in any way to disparage the extremely dedicated and indispensable work they do. Palms, and especially Dypsis, grow differently in cultivation with our TLC than they do in habitat.

While many palms may be "understory," I think that there are those that are truly understory - that is, they never spend any of their life in an "open" environment, or never become emergent, or partially emergent. Then there are those that start in the understory but "reach" and desire more light than the full-on shade of a forest floor as they mature. They may need this protected and more moist environment to start their lives in what are, a much harsher and less forgiving habitat than our special sprouting containers, greenhouses, a well watched gardens. I think this is one of the latter.

I killed many Dypsis by giving them too much shade in California. While shade and canopy is good in California because it protects them from the not uncommon hot/dry events, and freeze/frost events, it also subjects plants to many months of cold damp soil, without any heat from the winter sun that they desperately need. In Madagascar and similar locations, the shade in winter is nowhere near the temps of winter shade in California. And don't forget the difference in the length of the days either.

Even in Hawaii, this particular palm seems to do better in sun. But remember, the pic you see below is in the open, but in a location where tall trees filter light in the morning and evening, and most days have cloudy afternoons - much different than an open area in inland SoCal. But the one plant of Bo's mentioned above that was in deep shade did not grow near as well. And the second batch of Mad Foxes that Jeff M. has planted are in the open and are doing extremely well.

So to sum it up - I think coastal full sun is best in SoCal - and Nick's plant supports that idea. As you get inland, I would guess some protection from full summer sun may be needed. But it is a fine balance in order to find it some warmth for the winter. I would think morning sun would be preferred.

Stay tuned for another topic on the Mad Fox. I still have some reservations as to if this if really Dypsis marojeyi, and not D. coursii. This palm has never acquired the "litter trapping" habit I am familiar with described in PoM. And the seeds are a dead ringer for D. coursii.

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#24 Darold Petty

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:14 PM

Dean, is there any hope I might grow this in the colder San Francisco area? D. baronii grows slow and steady here, but I have failed twice with D. onilahensis. My assumption is lack of heat. Thanks !
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#25 Dypsisdean

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:46 PM

Dean, is there any hope I might grow this in the colder San Francisco area? D. baronii grows slow and steady here, but I have failed twice with D. onilahensis. My assumption is lack of heat. Thanks !

Darold - Sorry, but I don't have a clue. If I ventured any kind of advice, it would be totally worthless.

But I can tell you this. The SoCal crew gave up on this palm when it first came in almost 20 years ago. Everyone who tried the very few that were available killed them when planted in the ground. But as I discussed above, we killed a lot of Dypsis back then by 1) planting them in the ground when too small, and 2) giving them too much shade, because we wanted to protect the little guys.

Since that time, more Dypsis have survived by getting them bigger and giving them the few "sweet spots" in our California gardens. Since these are becoming increasingly available, and therefore less pricey - and since some are now having success - how would you ever know unless you try? But I wouldn't spend a lot for one either. I would be willing to send you a few seed when I get some more just to find out myself if they would go for you. :) It is such a nice palm it is worth it for anyone to give it a try.

The saving grace may be that it is not really a heat lover, like some of the Dypsis are - IMO.
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#26 edric

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:51 PM

I was going to stay on the sidelines until my ears started burning. :)

Jeff's plant is still the largest in Hawaii with almost two feet of trunk these days I believe. Mine only has about 6 inches.

My feelings on growing them are as follows. And I happen to agree with Nick on this one. I would listen to experienced growers and collective observations from cultivated gardens regarding cultural requirements before many botanists - and this is not meant to disparage the extremely dedicated and important work they do.

While many palms may be "understory," I think that there are those that are truly understory - that is, they never spend any of their life in an "open" environment, or never become emergent, or partially emergent. Then there are those that start in the understory but "reach" and desire more light than the full-on shade of a forest floor as they mature. They may need this protected and more moist environment to start their lives in what are, a much harsher and less forgiving habitat than our special sprouting containers, greenhouses, a well watched gardens. I think this is one of the latter.

I killed many Dypsis by giving them too much shade in California. While shade and canopy is good in California because it protects from the not uncommon hot/dry events, and freeze/frost events, it also subjects plants to many months of cold damp soil, without any heat from the winter sun that they desperately need. In Madagascar and similar locations, the shade in winter is nowhere near the temps of winter shade in California. And don't forget the difference in the length of the days either.

Even in Hawaii, this particular palm seems to do better in sun. But remember, the pic you see below is in the open, but in a location where tall trees filter light in the morning and evening, and most days have cloudy afternoons - much different than an open area in inland SoCal. But the one plant of Bo's mentioned above that was in deep shade did not grow near as well. And the second batch of Mad Foxes that Jeff M. has planted are in the open and are doing extremely well.

So to sum it up - I think coastal full sun is best in SoCal - and Nick's plant supports that idea. As you get inland, I would guess some protection from full summer sun may be needed. But it is a fine balance in order to find it some warmth for the winter. I would think morning sun would be preferred.

Stay tuned for another topic on the Mad Fox. I still have some reservations as to if this if really Dypsis marojeyi, and not D. coursii. This palm has never acquired the "litter trapping" habit I am familiar with described in PoM. And the seeds are a dead ringer for C. coursii.

Hi Dean, I agreed with all of that to begin with, J. Dransfied said in his description that it attained a hight of 6 meters, or around 18 feet or so, I thought under 18 feet was considered an under story, Ed
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#27 MattyB

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:01 PM

I've killed one of these in the greenhouse from too much heat. :( They seem to love our cool coastal SoCal micro-climates, very similar to Rhopalostylis, Hedescepy, Burretiokentia, etc., so I think you'd have a great shot at success with these Darold. I just saw Gary's, rather large plant for so SoCal, planted in full Escondido (inland) sun for the first half of the day. Gary decided that he didn't want to watch it burn, as it was begining to yellow a bit, so he had to shade cloth tent it for now. I suspect that with a few years of root growth he'll do well with half a day morning sun, and it's an entire half, right up to an including full overhead for a bit. Just my observations so far. I'm just waiting until I can try one of these again because they are one of the most beautiful palms in my opinion.
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#28 Darold Petty

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:08 PM

Dean and Matt, Thanks for the info.

I purchased two small one-gallon sized plants from Jeff. I will grow them on in my moderate (50-75F) greenhouse until they are larger. Even as seedlings they show the red flush in the new growth!
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#29 BS Man about Palms

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:27 PM

I think I am finding MOST Dypsis are fairly tolerant of cool conditions.(If in well draining soil and kept drier in winter) It seems to mainly be a question of how much sun the leaves can take, and at what age. I think In the beginning Nick had his fairly shaded and has given it more light, and I gave it pretty much full sun and have decided some partial shade would be best even on the coast.
I cannot argue at all with what Nick is doing as it shows in how great his looks.

I have stopped posting/ talking about mine as It seems to barely be growing, yet it looks fine. It slowed down just before the winter and yet pushes a spear REALLY slowly. Not sure if its all a winter thing, as I don't remember it being that much slower in the winter... so for the last month or so I had been trying to think why the slow pace (hopefully not decline) the only thing I could think of was about sept/oct of last year I found raccoons had dug all around inside its box looking for grub, worms etc and dug about 3-5 inches down all around the base. Thats the only drama I can remember which I have seen that may have hurt.

Dypsis moorei ALSO needs more shade than light...and probably the TRUE Dypsis basilonga and some of the St Lucei will be happy growing INTO the light..
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Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."
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#30 MattyB

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:36 PM

bill since yours is still in the box we can move it to my place for rehab
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10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)
9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

#31 Surf Guy

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:17 PM

It sounds like I may have chosen a bad spot for it. It WILL be in full shade from mid October to early March. The rest of the year it will be in sun. It may be hard to keep it warm in the winter. Anywhere else in my yard seemed that it would be in too much sun. I am three and a half miles to the coast and, with not much canopy, it still gets HOT in my backyard. I still have a chance to move it.
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#32 Vari805

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:30 PM

:floor: :floor: :floor:

Its amazing how well these actually do in So. Cal. Thanks to Jeff, we all can grow one now, and not "break the bank".

bill since yours is still in the box we can move it to my place for rehab


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#33 edric

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:38 PM

I didn't know it was such a mystery, that the younger a palm is the less light it needs, the older a palm is the more light it needs, but to what degree for how long, is the question, Ed
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#34 Surf Guy

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

So.....does all this mean my plant is going to die?
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#35 MattyB

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:24 PM

Nah, it'll be fine
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9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

#36 BS Man about Palms

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:29 PM

Just put a very light shadecloth over it. (I have found "pool screen" to work for this quite well) Or a bigger faster growing palm 4-5 feet away to give it some shade..
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-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

#37 Gtlevine

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:30 PM

My Dypsis marojejya is almost as big as Nicks. Last year I took off the shade tent and it grew a new set of 3/4 day hot inland sun leaves. Just last week I put the shade tent back on. The leaves are nice, but you can still see some visible sun burn. But the palm still grew great in all that sun and did not slow down which shows that this palm needs and likes some sun. Based on my experience it should be in 1/3 day morning sun inland, or filtered sun, but not in the shade. I have another one in full shade that does not look nearly as good and grows much slower.
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#38 ellidro

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:31 PM

So.....does all this mean my plant is going to die?


I don't think your plant will die although I will through out the declaimer these seem to be like Hedyscepe where some just take off and others die for no reason or are just very sluggish. I've killed a handful of these but usually they die before they get to the size of your palm. The problem I run into with Dypsis in summer sun and winter shade is yellow leaves year around. They yellow a tad from going through winter then tend to yellow or burn from the harsh summer sun. The opposite summer shade and winter full sun seems to yield great results with Dypsis.
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#39 JD in the OC

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:34 PM

I don't know Mike... looks like a standard Wodyetia to me :D
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