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COLD DAMAGE REPORT FROM ATHENS, GREECE


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#1 basilios

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:25 AM

This winter has been declared officially the coldest one in Greece in the last 50 years. More than a typical greek winter, with cool but not very cold temperatures and a couple of cold spells with maybe a few days with extreme lows, this one was quite different : first of all, it was a really, REALLY long winter, since daytime highs dropped below 20C/68F around mid October (which was unusually early) and stayed below that barrier for exactly 5 months in a row, till yesterday that is, without a single day above 20C/68F in between, at least in Athens where I live.

It was also an extremely persistent cold winter, especially between late December and early March (almost two and a half months!), a period during which most of the time the daytime highs stayed at around or below 10C/50F and there was a good number of days (probably 20 or so) where highs actually never passed 6C/42F, with night time lows slightly above freezing or around freezing temps. There were also several days of light snow in the city, although not close to the sea where I live. Adding to that the effect of the absence of really warm days in between, it was an unprecedentedly rough winter for plants and people, piling one cold spell after another and so on. Living so close to the sea, the lowest temperature I monitored in my place was around 1.5C / 34.5C, so there was no actual freezing, but nevertheless my plants took quite a beating from the sustained cold, the total lack of warmth for 5 months and the occasional fierce sea winds that present a constant challenge for growing any kind of plant in this area.

I think some of you living in Mediterranean climates, and most probably my Greek colleagues of the forum, might be interested to know how did my palms (and a couple of other tropicals) perform through that punishing period of time. Mind you, all my palms grow in pots, so I suppose most of them would do better if planted in the ground. So here it goes :

NO DAMAGE / MINIMUM DAMAGE

- All the obvious ones (CIDP, phoenix silvestris, sabals, washingtonias, butyagrus, brahea armata, livistona chinensis & decora, cham. radicalis, cycas revoluta, queen palm etc)
- Bismarkia nobilis
- Archontophoenix cunninghamiana (illawara) & archonto myolensis. Absolutely no problem for those two.
- Chambeyronia macrocarpa “watermelon”
- Dypsis decipiens
- Allagoptera arenaria
- Walichia densiflora
- Beccariophoenix alfredii
- Pritchardia hillebrandii : that was a surprise – not even spots or brown tips from the strong winds, it looks exactly as it looked at the end of the summer. It turns out to be a great palm for the coastal and southern Greece!
- Phoenix rupicola.
- Chamaedorea microspadix & costaricana
- Parajubaea torallyi
- Dypsis decaryi (triangle palm). Also a tough palm and a strong grower.
- Dioon spinulosum
- Dracaena draco


MEDIUM DAMAGE / PARTIAL LEAF BURNING / MINOR DEFOLIATION

- Allagoptera caudescens. Some leaf burning, probably more from the strong winds than from the cold. Overall in descent condition.
- Roystonea regia. Extensive leaf burning, also partly from the strong winds. Apparently no other problems.
- Thrinax parviflora. About 30% leaf burning.
- Wodyetia (foxtails). I have 3, one of them is almost defoliated but I’m pretty sure it will survive, the other two have leaf burns but no further problem.
- Chamaedorea plumosa. Probably more troubled by the winds than by the cold.
- Butia capitata. Total burning and defoliation of all the younger leaves, most certainly from the extreme salty winds. Maybe not such a good candidate for coastal conditions.


SEVERE DAMAGE / KILLED

- Raphia australis. Toasted and gone as soon as the temperature dropped below 2C / 36F. A petty, because I really loved that palm, it was quite a strong grower and a looker! Oh well…
- Copernicia baileyana. Small seedling. Totally defoliated, the spear is a mystery since it’s grey anyway, so I can’t tell if it’s OK or not. It may come through, though. Time (and warm weather) will tell.
- Syagrus amara. Gone (although it was also a very small seedling. A larger plant might have fared better).
- Thrinax radiata : It did well through the previous couple of winters, but it was finally defoliated. The spear seems OK, but again, only time will tell.
- Pandanus utilis : Totally burned and rapidly dead from fungus.

I hope you’ll find this data useful.
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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

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#2 Patricia-CR

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:40 AM

Thanks for the useful info!
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#3 Phoenikakias

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Butias grow on the promenade of Cannes in France. It is not the salt laden wind the cause, maybe you have overwatered them. BTW Butias are susceptible to trunk borers. Becarefull of all palms with crownshaft. The archontophoenix, chambeyronia are cool tolerant but not frost tolerant in our climate, where frost is almost always combined with snow and high humidity and temps don't rise rapidly to 20+C. Were your plants overhead protected? I suppose yes because you live in a flat and your plants grow on the balcony. My hillebrandii suffered cold damage (extensive cold spots on many leaves) but grows vigorously. I thik Pritchardia macrocarpa is more cold tolerant.Coccothrinax is generally more cold tolerant than Thrinax. Dypsis decaryi has absolutely no chance on long term in Athens. Still to soon for a final estimation of damages;wait untill mid May...
Obviously you have a lot more to learn.
Kind regards!
PS
I also had large trunking specimens of Archontophoenix alexandrae, cunninghamiana, illawara, maxima, myolaensis, purpurea, Dracaena draco, Dypsis decaryi, Chambeyronia macrocarpa, Kentiopsis oliviformis, Rhopalostylis sapida, Roystonea regia, Thrinax parviflora, Coccothrinax crinita, Parajubaea cocoides, Roystonea regia, all of them ih the ground. All of them literally melted during freaky winter 2004.

Edited by Phoenikakias, 20 March 2012 - 10:03 AM.

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#4 basilios

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

My decaryi has grown outside since 2008 and has never had any problem, it has tripled in size and apart from some limited brown tipping it's doing great, so I'll say it's hardy enough for me till I'm proven wrong. My plants are indeed overhead protected but some of D. decaryi's fronds are extended off the protected limits to the open air and still they are not significantly burned or otherwise damaged. You should also consider that some of my other palms perform better than expected in our climate because they are grown from seed in the exact same spot (roystonea, wodyetia, archonto cunninghamiana among them). Maybe it's colder where you live, cause I'm in an urban pocket just 20 meters from the sea, so it's about as warm as it can get in the general Athens area (normally 2 or 3C warmer than the center of the city). We have had below freezing temperatures only 3 or 4 times during my whole lifetime (and I'm 46).

Edited by basilios, 20 March 2012 - 10:23 AM.

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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#5 gyuseppe

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:50 AM

also in my city, We had very cold winter,it snowed,not happened since 1985!
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#6 richnorm

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:10 AM

Basilos,
We had similarly freakish cool winter weather though not as prolonged as yours. My pandanus utilis turned to stinking mush in the centre but amazingly staged a comeback and now has a strong rosette again. On the downside some damage to palms didn't appear until well into summer in the form of deformed leaves. Unfortunately we have also had an abnormally cool summer so some of my more heat demanding palms may be on a roller coaster to oblivion.
Good luck!
Richard
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#7 Phoenikakias

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

Probably your plants are also protected from the northern wind through the main walls of your flat. So your experience is by no means a reliable one for someone who wants to use these spss for landscaping. How many of these palms have survived the winter 2004? Probably you want to gain your own experience through trial and error. Let it be so! Just bear in mind that even on your protected balcony the palms some day will outgrow every possible size of pot and the roots will touch the pot walls, thus beeing unprotected by soil. Then we talk again.
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#8 basilios

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:08 PM

Some of my palms are totally exposed to the northern winds - and I'm talking about winds that bring down pots that weigh over 50 kilograms, occasionally smash windows and sometimes send smaller pots flying some 20 meters down the road. How about that? My butia is placed facing north, as well as a few sabals, chamaerops, cycas revoluta and phoenix sylvestris. Don't forget that I live by the sea and all kinds of winds are amplified for a variety of reasons in this zone. In fact northern winds are not the strongest ones, they are pretty weak compared to the south-west sea winds that occur once or twice every month and they literally devastate everything, including nearby trees and even the hardware of the building.

Now trial and error indeed is what I do, but isn't it what almost all palm enthusiasts living in mediterranean or temperate climates usually do? I don't see what's wrong with it - actually general knowledge about palms has grown significantly by trying tropical and subtropical palms in places like California, Spain, Italy and New Zealand and finding out that a good number of species can grow, and maybe even thrive, under non-tropical conditions. Older palm literature is full of species that were considered exclusively tropical at the time, but now, precisely after a copious and long process of trial and error, can be seen growing in many warm temperate areas. As far as the future size of the palms is concerned, I have a few ideas on the subject, so don't worry, I'll figure it out.
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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#9 Phoenikakias

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:00 PM

You said it yourself, exposed to the north are the cold hardy spss. Why don't you place there for example Wodyetia or Roystonea or Chambeyronia? Maybe you will produce new knowledge to all of us!!!
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#10 Phoenikakias

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:44 PM

Mean low temps don't bother that much palms as absolute min. In latter respect the coldest winter in 50 years was the one in 2004. It is your rigt to proceed on your own the trial and error way and my right to help other people avoid any misleading, frustration and waste of money! Also put your Dypsis decaryi to a north facing place, it would be very interesting and amusing!
Kind regards
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#11 basilios

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:56 PM

OK then, let me rephrase : a wodyetia can probably survive in coastal Athens if facing south, but maybe it can't if facing north. Satisfied now?

Also, I forgot to mention another 2 species that did fine through this tough winter : Kentia, growing in a protected spot in the building's garden, but receiving no sunlight at all, it shows no signs of stress whatsoever and has been opening a new leaf ever since daytime temperatures rose above 14C / 57F. Also, the on-going surprise called Areca triandra, surviving easily its second winter outside, facing totally north and receiving only a couple of hours of early morning sun, which makes its spot probably the coldest in my place. It doesn't like the winds, that's for sure, and it looks always tattered, but it's proving to be a palm very tolerant of cool and even cold conditions, especially considering its totally tropical origin.
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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#12 basilios

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:24 PM

Friend : this is a palm discussion forum and everyone posts his or her own experiences from growing their palms, and that's the cool thing about it. It is not a scientific research in progress nor a congress of botanists discussing the new breakthrough in plant science. So relax, because you're getting sarcastic and even a bit agressive and I can't see no reason for that kind of attitude.

PS : This winter was declared the coldest in 50 years not by me, but by the National Meteorology Service of Greece, and it was posted all over the local press. So get your facts straight. http://www.tovima.gr...cle/?aid=447031

Edited by basilios, 20 March 2012 - 11:26 PM.

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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#13 richnorm

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:24 AM

OK then, let me rephrase : a wodyetia can probably survive in coastal Athens if facing south, but maybe it can't if facing north. Satisfied now?

Also, I forgot to mention another 2 species that did fine through this tough winter : Kentia, growing in a protected spot in the building's garden, but receiving no sunlight at all, it shows no signs of stress whatsoever and has been opening a new leaf ever since daytime temperatures rose above 14C / 57F. Also, the on-going surprise called Areca triandra, surviving easily its second winter outside, facing totally north and receiving only a couple of hours of early morning sun, which makes its spot probably the coldest in my place. It doesn't like the winds, that's for sure, and it looks always tattered, but it's proving to be a palm very tolerant of cool and even cold conditions, especially considering its totally tropical origin.

Interesting that you mention Areca triandra as I have just planted one as an experiment. I too have noticed how cool tolerant these appear to be. Is the plant at your place in-ground or potted? I've had them survive winter outside in small pots and suspect they would do even better planted due to higher root temperatures on winter nights.
cheers
Richard
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#14 Kostas

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:29 AM

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences with this winter Basilios as well as climate info! I didnt know this winter was officially declared the coldest in 50 years but i felt it should be so! Too cool/cold for too long. We didnt get record lows but we did get colder than average lows. At least spring is in for good now and we are having warm weather for a good few weeks!Posted Image
I wish your palms fast and full recovery!!!Posted Image

Basilios said things straight,he mentioned his lows,he mentioned his growing area,he mentioned everything that might affect his palms and how they did. So the information he provided is totally accurate. Its his experience with the species he grows and he said they will most likely survive long term in his growing area. Thats a very good guess. Now if they will survive elsewhere in Athens,thats a totally different story affected by the local microclimates. Now as to growing his sensitive species in a more protected,south facing location,well,thats common sense to select your best microclimate for your more tender species and not letting them exposed to your colder areas. I also grow my tender species in my most protected microclimates and that way,they grow well and get minimum damage. Selecting a good microclimate offers long term protection without effort so its the wise thing to do with tender speciesPosted Image
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#15 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:37 AM

@Richard: My areca triandra is growing in a pot.


@Kostas : Thanks - my points exactly! How did your palms perform this winter? I know you have a few marginal species growing in Pyrgos, such as hyophorbe, ch. tepejilote, normanbya etc, so I'm very interested in your own observations.
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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#16 Phoenikakias

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:12 AM

It is not a natural microclimate what Basilios has, it is artificial protection. The past winter is by no means a landmark for a cold hardiness data basis in Athens. Cold was dry and not below 0 and if so only of a very short duration in southern Attica. I repeat my question and please give me an answer without evasions, otherwise I feel like I must be sarcastic. How many of those palms that you keep outdoors in pots or in ground have survived the winter 2004?
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#17 Miccles

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:41 AM

It is not a natural microclimate what Basilios has, it is artificial protection. The past winter is by no means a landmark for a cold hardiness data basis in Athens. Cold was dry and not below 0 and if so only of a very short duration in southern Attica. I repeat my question and please give me an answer without evasions, otherwise I feel like I must be sarcastic. How many of those palms that you keep outdoors in pots or in ground have survived the winter 2004?


Sir - there are ways of asking things, and then there are other ways of asking things. You might want to be a little more polite than your above post if you envisage your interaction with Palmtalk to be more than a fleeting one.

Regards

Michael
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Just north of Cairns, Australia....16 Deg S.
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Spending a lot of time in Jakarta, Indonesia... 6 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 25C to 34C.

#18 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:45 AM

The answer is none, because I didn't have them back then. And your question is rather pointless, since 2004 wasn't a record breaking cold winter where I live. Again, get your data straight.

Also : freak cold spells occur, from time to time, in all non-tropical places around the world, including California, Florida, Southern Europe & Mediterranean, Middle East, northern India or south Australia. But people keep trying to grow a variety of palms in all those places and don't get disencouraged by a possible weather event that may happen once or twice every 20 or 40 years. Southern California is, on average, MUCH warmer than southern Greece, yet they had a cold spell in 2007 that gave temperatures much lower than those that have ever occured in coastal Athens. Same goes with Central Florida, an otherwise subtropical region. And if you bother to read the huge number of this forum's posts regarding the various freeze events in those two palm growing states, you'll find out that the effects on palms and other plants vary greatly not only within the same region or city, but also within the same property or garden, depending on a thousand different factors. That's precisely the purpose of the separate "Freeze Damage Data" forum, which I suggest you to take a look. You're relatively new to this forum, so you probably have much to learn about how this community works. And being sarcastic towards people who treat you politely only shows rude manners, nothing more.

Edited by basilios, 21 March 2012 - 01:47 AM.

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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#19 Kostas

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:54 AM

In Pyrgos,my palms saw -2C to -2,5C which is the lowest they have ever seen so far,and of course,some of my palms were damaged. Damage was not too extensive thankfully and it appears i didnt lose any palm except 2 experimental seedlings of Astrocarym standleyanum i planted last fall,and even that is not 100% sure yet.
This year again,damage reflected very well on my microclimates,with the same species damaged in my worst microclimate and totally undamaged in my better ones.
I got 50% damage on a Ceroxylon amazonicum growing in my most exposed area while none of my other Ceroxylon amazonicum were damaged,growing elsewhere in my garden.

My Archontophoenix alexandrae growing in a more exposed location(still a protected spot though)got 90% damage on its leafs with leaflets protected from other leaflets as well as all leaf rachis undamaged. The spear is almost totally undamaged and its opening already. My other Archontophoenix alexandrae in a better microclimate is again almost undamaged(maybe 5% damage on a few more exposed leaflet tips).

Howea fosteriana got some damage on few leafs,maybe 30-50%,while other leafs are undamaged.

Bismarckia nobilis(Silver) got no damage except blowing over from the fierce winds we had along with 450mm of rainfall in a single month!!!!Posted Image Thats the normal rainfall for the whole of spring! It doesnt appear to have broken roots,at least not many,as it blew over due to the soil softening and giving in to the wind force.

All of my Chamaedorea tepejilote got no damage at all,for which i am very happy!

My Normanbya normanbyi which is never doing well because of being planted in an unsuitable for this species location,got 90% leaf damage growing in one of the most exposed areas of my garden. A seedling i am growing under leaf canopy,where Normanya normanbyi loves to be,is undamaged.

My Hyophorbe indica(Southern) got defoliated eventually but with the leaf rachis and crownshaft appearing undamaged. I still dont know for sure if this is the final damage or if the damage will progress and so i am not certain on how it will do. If that is all the damage,as it appears to be,it will probably recover finePosted Image

No damage at all on all 3 of my Chambeyronia macrocarpa(Hookeri) growing in various places in my garden and not all in favorable microclimates.

50% damage on my Kerriodoxa elegans but it appears to be from bud rot and not cold. I am not sure how this will do but it sure wasnt damaged by cold but from the excessive rain and not too good of air circulation from weeds growing tall close to it while i was away.

10% damage on a ground planted Pritchardia schattaueri seedlings growing in a good microclimate and total defoliation on 2 other potted seedlings of this species growing in a bad microclimate. Spear and leaf bases are green and appear that they will recover.

No damage to Cryosophila warcewiczii from the cold. One of my 2 though,the one i got and planted in fall,has some damaged leafs which appear to be fungus damaged. These were greenhouse grown leafs and very thin and sensitive. I think it will do fine though as the spear appears ok and has grown a good deal since i got it.

My Acanthophoenix rubra got 95% leaf damage unfortunately with only few leaflet parts and all leaf rachis alive. Its spear is fine though and already opening! It appears it was superficial leaf damage and not something that would kill the palm.

My Kentiopsis magnifica,in a good microclimate,got no leaf damage at allPosted Image

Of course Syagrus romanzoffiana,Washingtonia robusta and Trachycarpus fortunei got no damage.

My potted Coccothrinax alexandrii var. alexandrii got 30% leaf damage in somewhat protected area and is opening its spear now.


All in all,i am quite happy with how my palms and other plants handled this cold winter. Hopefully,as the plants and the canopy grows,they may be able to survive our record low temperatures when they come someday...
I look forward to see everything recover fully and look awesome again!!!Posted Image
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#20 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:14 AM

Wow!!! Quite an interesting report Kostas! Thanks for the info, it's indeed inspiring and encouraging to know that tropical species like yours can actually survive a winter like this if given a proper microclimate and some minimum protection. Way to go!
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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#21 Kostas

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:33 AM

Thanks Basilios!Posted Image I dont protect any of my palms or plants in Pyrgos but i like selecting suitable microclimates for them as well as making them with trees and other plants!Posted Image A closed tree canopy should offer adequate protection to keep even my most sensitive palms alive in a record cold winter given how much my small trees and broken canopy protects them now!Posted Image
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#22 Harry

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:12 AM

Nature is always trivial.

There are a gazilion factors which come into effect whenever weather damage is recorded.
From individual plant genes, size, robustness, rain, soil etc.

The cold weather here has recently managed to fry a small Chamaerops Humilis Cerifera (bullet-proof ?) whereas a delicate-looking tropical Dypsis 3 feet away laughed in its face. Go figure.

I am definitely going to try and grow a coconut here anyway over this coming summer!!

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#23 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:27 AM

LOL! Harry, that's the spirit! :D
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Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#24 Phoenikakias

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:01 AM


It is not a natural microclimate what Basilios has, it is artificial protection. The past winter is by no means a landmark for a cold hardiness data basis in Athens. Cold was dry and not below 0 and if so only of a very short duration in southern Attica. I repeat my question and please give me an answer without evasions, otherwise I feel like I must be sarcastic. How many of those palms that you keep outdoors in pots or in ground have survived the winter 2004?


Sir - there are ways of asking things, and then there are other ways of asking things. You might want to be a little more polite than your above post if you envisage your interaction with Palmtalk to be more than a fleeting one.

Regards

Michael

The expression 'little more polite' is it not a litle sarcastic? What does 'fleeting' suppose to mean? Is that a warning? My writting style in this thread may be direct but not rude. If someone feels offended because I contradict his arguments that's subjective. I shall not accept any censorship either in this forum or elsewhere in my life. My primary objective is to protect my fellow unexperienced citizens from falling victims of overoptimistic estimations. If that is not to the interest of palm growers and sellers, it does not concern me!
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#25 Kostas

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:03 AM

That would be great Harry,especially if it proves successful there!Posted Image

Btw,Chamaerops are very unlikely to suffer cold damage at your place but they do rot somewhat easy while small which might be the case with yours...
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#26 bahia

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:41 AM

A couple of the palms Basilios grows I also have planted out in the open garden here in my northern California Berkeley garden about a half mile from the bay. I have a half dozen C. plumosa, and can confirm that while fairly cool tolerant over the winter, the palms more exposed to cold winds definitely struggle to keep as many fronds in healthy condition, also the case even in summer. My experience so far over the past 5 years with these that were planted as 3 to 5 foot tall trunked specimens, is that they resent unprotected from strong winds locations, and have grown better with more shelter. Our typical winters here seldom dip much below -1°C for more than a few hours. The one winter back in 1990 when we did get down to -4C, I only had one initial Chamaedorea plumosa. It survived complete defoliation and spear pull and some damage to the trunk, similar to damage to Archontophoenix cunninghamiana palms at Lake Merritt's Palmetum in the same freeze of 1990 at similar lows.

I also grow Chamaedorea tepelijote, but only in much more wind sheltered and tree shaded locations. It's been my experience that it is much more sensitive to both cold and sun, but has been a good performer in long cool periods which flirt with freezing here, but seldom dip below 0°C.

Chamaedorea costaricana is another good performer in the ground for me, but has proven somewhat sensitive to too much sun. The specimen on the north side of my house does better than the one on the east side; the noon day sun of summer can burn and yellow the foliage, even though we stay pretty cool here so close to the bay.

I appreciate the chance to read here about other growers around the world and their experiences. I also can understand the different points of view of what constitutes a "real winter's test", and how palms in the ground vary from palms in containers on a balcony. I know my own garden here presents far fewer difficulties of cold and wind than most, but lack of direct winter sun from December through February leads me to believe that I'd have problems keeping more cold/winter wet species happy. I suspect I'd have major winter losses of many of those more tender species here; daytime sun to allow some degree of warm up makes a huge difference for some palms. I've found that palms such as Howeia forsteriana, Rhopalostylis baueri and Archontophoenix cunninghamiana have been some that do fine here with complete winter shade.
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#27 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

@Bahia

Interesting. I didn't know ch. tepejilote could grow so far north in California.
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#28 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:42 AM

@Kostas

Didn't you have some dictyospermas? What ever happened to them?
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#29 Kostas

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

I planted a single Dictyosperma maybe a couple of years ago but it died in its first winter. I planted it in a pretty exposed spot though(i didnt know how bad it was at the time) with winter shade,so it was pretty much doomed...Its first winter was a bad-ish one and it died. I am going to try this species again this year in a better spot and hope it does ok...Posted Image
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#30 Phoenikakias

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 03:25 PM

The answer is none, because I didn't have them back then. And your question is rather pointless, since 2004 wasn't a record breaking cold winter where I live. Again, get your data straight.

Also : freak cold spells occur, from time to time, in all non-tropical places around the world, including California, Florida, Southern Europe & Mediterranean, Middle East, northern India or south Australia. But people keep trying to grow a variety of palms in all those places and don't get disencouraged by a possible weather event that may happen once or twice every 20 or 40 years. Southern California is, on average, MUCH warmer than southern Greece, yet they had a cold spell in 2007 that gave temperatures much lower than those that have ever occured in coastal Athens. Same goes with Central Florida, an otherwise subtropical region. And if you bother to read the huge number of this forum's posts regarding the various freeze events in those two palm growing states, you'll find out that the effects on palms and other plants vary greatly not only within the same region or city, but also within the same property or garden, depending on a thousand different factors. That's precisely the purpose of the separate "Freeze Damage Data" forum, which I suggest you to take a look. You're relatively new to this forum, so you probably have much to learn about how this community works. And being sarcastic towards people who treat you politely only shows rude manners, nothing more.

I made some inquiring regarding the accuracy of the first paragraph of your post. What I learned is very interesting. From resindets in Palaio Faliro (Attica,Greece) I learned that meters tall, in fact gigantic, and decades old specimens of Ficus decora on Mouson str. got burned back to the ground in 2004!Since then they have resprouted from the ground and have not experienced untill today a similiar damage. If you are kind enough to explain this damage 'since 2004 wasn't a record breaking cold winter', I would be utmostly grateful. I hope that greek newcomers to this forum from Athens draw the right conclusions. If the freegedon of 2004 happened once it is likely to happen again, especially in this period of climatic instability (many extreme cases)!
kind regards
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#31 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

2004 = Lowest temp -1.5C by the beach just for one night, a few hours of -3C in the interior, 2cm of snow pile.
2008= -3C by the beach, -4.5C in the interior, up to 10cm of snow pile, Poseidonos ave. closed for several hours, at least 21 hours below freezing. http://hengeo.pblogs...arioy-2008.html

For some reason, the 2004 freeze hit hard central and northern parts of Athens, but not so much the southern suburbs. For some other reason, the 2008 freeze fall especially heavy on the southern parts, which received record-breaking snowstorms and low temperatures. Since I live on Mouson str. I can tell you that all kinds of plants were burned to the ground in 2008, including ficus (mine was totally toasted and hit the bucket, even if it had survived the 2004 freeze, which was definitely lighter).

These are a few photos from February 2008 freeze, which was the worst experienced in the southern part of Athens during the last 20-30 years (at least).

This is what the beach looked like on 18th of February 2008, a totally unprecedented sight :

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by basilios, 21 March 2012 - 04:32 PM.

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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
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#32 basilios

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

Thick ice on the sideways of the coast avenue, also a unique sight never before seen in that part of Athens :

Posted Image


A small CIDP literally burried under the snow :

Posted Image


A washingtonia :

Posted Image

A snowman next to a washingtonia filifera :

Posted Image
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Paleo Faliro, coastal Athens, Greece
Lat 37° 55' 33" N - Lon 23° 42' 34" E
Zone 9b/10a, cool winters, hot summers, coastal effect

#33 bahia

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:52 PM

I would never have expected to see snow on the beach in Athens, certainly more than I've ever seen here in the San Francisco Bay Area when we last had significant snow in the early 1960's. How cold weather presents itself can certainly be capricious, in the December 1990 freeze that saw below freezing temps here by the bay for 10 days in a row with no snow but ice which didn't melt; it was actually colder in parts of coastal San Diego than similar altitudes and distance to the sea here 500 miles further north. Unfortunately there wasn't much benefit from microclimates or variations in temperature, it seemed to freeze everything equally in my own garden which only got down to 24°F, while up in the hills just 2 miles away it got down to 19°F and 20 miles inland at Walnut Creek's Ruth Bancroft. Garden it got down to 13°F.

Bottom line, it's a benefit to love close to salt water in a freeze, but it only compensates to a degree at more northerly latitudes.
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#34 Harry

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:39 PM

That is amazing!
Are you sure those photos are not "photoshoped"?

I have never seen snow piled up on a Mediterranean beach before.

I presume that most of the non–gardening local residents must have been overjoyed with this phenomenon!

Now I can safely say that I have seen everything!
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#35 Miccles

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:08 AM



It is not a natural microclimate what Basilios has, it is artificial protection. The past winter is by no means a landmark for a cold hardiness data basis in Athens. Cold was dry and not below 0 and if so only of a very short duration in southern Attica. I repeat my question and please give me an answer without evasions, otherwise I feel like I must be sarcastic. How many of those palms that you keep outdoors in pots or in ground have survived the winter 2004?


Sir - there are ways of asking things, and then there are other ways of asking things. You might want to be a little more polite than your above post if you envisage your interaction with Palmtalk to be more than a fleeting one.

Regards

Michael

The expression 'little more polite' is it not a litle sarcastic? What does 'fleeting' suppose to mean? Is that a warning? My writting style in this thread may be direct but not rude. If someone feels offended because I contradict his arguments that's subjective. I shall not accept any censorship either in this forum or elsewhere in my life. My primary objective is to protect my fellow unexperienced citizens from falling victims of overoptimistic estimations. If that is not to the interest of palm growers and sellers, it does not concern me!



Yeah no worries mate....whatever. "Little more polite" means exactly that.... it's not sarcastic, it's straight upfront advice. "Fleeting" means "quick", and if you just want to be a rude upstart, you'll quickly find no-one will give you the time of day, that's all. It's not a warning (not able to give you one anyhow), it's just advice- pure and simple. Take it how you will. People the world over post their personal experiences on this board. As your fellow countrymen have been at pains to point out, there are so many factors that will influence the microclimate a palm will be grown in. No one has categorically said what works for them will work for others. I suspect you know this already.
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Just north of Cairns, Australia....16 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 18C to 34C.

Spending a lot of time in Jakarta, Indonesia... 6 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 25C to 34C.

#36 Phoenikakias

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:01 AM




It is not a natural microclimate what Basilios has, it is artificial protection. The past winter is by no means a landmark for a cold hardiness data basis in Athens. Cold was dry and not below 0 and if so only of a very short duration in southern Attica. I repeat my question and please give me an answer without evasions, otherwise I feel like I must be sarcastic. How many of those palms that you keep outdoors in pots or in ground have survived the winter 2004?


Sir - there are ways of asking things, and then there are other ways of asking things. You might want to be a little more polite than your above post if you envisage your interaction with Palmtalk to be more than a fleeting one.

Regards

Michael

The expression 'little more polite' is it not a litle sarcastic? What does 'fleeting' suppose to mean? Is that a warning? My writting style in this thread may be direct but not rude. If someone feels offended because I contradict his arguments that's subjective. I shall not accept any censorship either in this forum or elsewhere in my life. My primary objective is to protect my fellow unexperienced citizens from falling victims of overoptimistic estimations. If that is not to the interest of palm growers and sellers, it does not concern me!



Yeah no worries mate....whatever. "Little more polite" means exactly that.... it's not sarcastic, it's straight upfront advice. "Fleeting" means "quick", and if you just want to be a rude upstart, you'll quickly find no-one will give you the time of day, that's all. It's not a warning (not able to give you one anyhow), it's just advice- pure and simple. Take it how you will. People the world over post their personal experiences on this board. As your fellow countrymen have been at pains to point out, there are so many factors that will influence the microclimate a palm will be grown in. No one has categorically said what works for them will work for others. I suspect you know this already.

Now I sweep my tears cause no one gives me the time of day! Anyway I' d rather read and learn in this forum, even after 20 years of practice. By having mentioned my fellow countrymen, I was not refering either to Vasilios or Kostas. If they want to ignore old famous palm growers from warm temperate regions like late Pauleen Sullivan and Don Tollefson and especially Kostas insists on the ''tough'' instead of the ''coddle'' theory with comic results such us his flying bizi, it's indifferent to me. Much more I was implying other athenian Greeks, who may be new or just about to jump in this hobby. Because information in the Web does not get filtered before its publication (and it should not) this function should be replaced by counter-argumentation from other forum members. And the greater the inaccuracy or risk of misleading the sharper will be the disagreement.
What Vasilios has described is not a microclimate stricto sensu but artificial protection and kinda active one. Imagine an outplanted palm with pannels or frames against northern wind and overhead protection and furthermore receiving not only solar passive heat but also artificial heat. This is exactly the enviroment on the balcony of Vasilios. Active heating is produced in the interior of his flat and part of it is radiated through the main walls to his balcony. I bet that many of his palms, especially the crownshafted one, even if outplanted right opposite his flat at the shoreline, wouldn't survive for five consecutive years (if the weather pattern of last decade continues)!!! And this is the end of my participation in this topic.
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#37 greekpalm

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:09 AM

Phoenikakias, i think you made a clear point, i do agree with you on some points, but do NOT forget that basilios mentioned ALL the variables on WHERE and HOW he grows his palms !!

and btw he doesnt grow palms as a living but as a hobby, so if you try and fail it isnt that bad, at least he tried. Also beeing stubborn sometimes creates something beautiful !

anyway i dont have alot of time but this is what got damaged or died this winter ( my neighbour was watering them way to much in this last winter thats why some might have died)

1 Roystonea Regia ( the other one i have is just fine with only around 30% of damage)
foxtail had 30% of damage
Dypsis lutescens 40% died and from those who survived 70% were damage

very weird but none of my musas died and only one of my two travellers palms died...
so it is weird that that my beloved roystonea regia left me...

I wasnt in greece this winter so i have no idea how cold or how "cool" this winter was..

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USDA Hardiness Zones 9b to 10a
AHS Heat Zones 8
altitude 100 meters (320 Feet)
4 km (2,4 Miles) from the Mediterranean
Posted Image
lowest ever recorded temperature -4 C (24 F)
maximum ever recored temperature 45 C (113 F)
mean minimum temperature January 7 C (44 F)
mean maximum temperature January 14 C (57 F)
mean minimum temperature July 23 C (74 F)
mean maximum temperature July 33 C (92 F)
average annual rainfall 330mm (13 Inch)
average annual sunshine 2800 hours

#38 Janni

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:59 PM

anyway i dont have alot of time but this is what got damaged or died this winter ( my neighbour was watering them way to much in this last winter thats why some might have died)

1 Roystonea Regia ( the other one i have is just fine with only around 30% of damage)
foxtail had 30% of damage
Dypsis lutescens 40% died and from those who survived 70% were damage

very weird but none of my musas died and only one of my two travellers palms died...
so it is weird that that my beloved roystonea regia left me...

I wasnt in greece this winter so i have no idea how cold or how "cool" this winter was..


hi Manoli,

very interesting report. I have one question: Did your foxtail eventually die or did it just have 40% damage and survived?
I'd love to know if Foxtails can survive a weird winter like that past one in greece, as foxtails are one of my favourites!!

In deed the last winter in greece was a weird one! Such a prolonged cool period is very uncommon. Temperatures stayed from last september on a few degrees below average. The really cold cold-spells were rather dry and the lowest temps were not near to the record lows. In fact many regions stayed frost free, what is normal, actually.

Do you have some other tropical palms which survived?

Btw: our winter here in germany was weird, as well. Until january we had one of the mildest winters ever and I had almost all cool-hardy palms outside, like different species of phoenix, chamaerops, trachys and sabals and even my two syagrus rom. and a plumeria frangipani. but then winter went into hyper-mode!! many plants died. not mine, I took them inside, but many people have planted trachycarpus and other cold-hardy plants outside and they died almost all, or at least suffer complete defoliation... very sad!

however, I`m looking forward to the warm season :)
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#39 Miccles

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:59 PM



Yeah no worries mate....whatever. "Little more polite" means exactly that.... it's not sarcastic, it's straight upfront advice. "Fleeting" means "quick", and if you just want to be a rude upstart, you'll quickly find no-one will give you the time of day, that's all. It's not a warning (not able to give you one anyhow), it's just advice- pure and simple. Take it how you will. People the world over post their personal experiences on this board. As your fellow countrymen have been at pains to point out, there are so many factors that will influence the microclimate a palm will be grown in. No one has categorically said what works for them will work for others. I suspect you know this already.

Now I sweep my tears cause no one gives me the time of day! Anyway I' d rather read and learn in this forum, even after 20 years of practice. By having mentioned my fellow countrymen, I was not refering either to Vasilios or Kostas. If they want to ignore old famous palm growers from warm temperate regions like late Pauleen Sullivan and Don Tollefson and especially Kostas insists on the ''tough'' instead of the ''coddle'' theory with comic results such us his flying bizi, it's indifferent to me. Much more I was implying other athenian Greeks, who may be new or just about to jump in this hobby. Because information in the Web does not get filtered before its publication (and it should not) this function should be replaced by counter-argumentation from other forum members. And the greater the inaccuracy or risk of misleading the sharper will be the disagreement.
What Vasilios has described is not a microclimate stricto sensu but artificial protection and kinda active one. Imagine an outplanted palm with pannels or frames against northern wind and overhead protection and furthermore receiving not only solar passive heat but also artificial heat. This is exactly the enviroment on the balcony of Vasilios. Active heating is produced in the interior of his flat and part of it is radiated through the main walls to his balcony. I bet that many of his palms, especially the crownshafted one, even if outplanted right opposite his flat at the shoreline, wouldn't survive for five consecutive years (if the weather pattern of last decade continues)!!! And this is the end of my participation in this topic.


.....

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Just north of Cairns, Australia....16 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 18C to 34C.

Spending a lot of time in Jakarta, Indonesia... 6 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 25C to 34C.

#40 greekpalm

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:48 PM

hi Manoli,

very interesting report. I have one question: Did your foxtail eventually die or did it just have 40% damage and survived?
I'd love to know if Foxtails can survive a weird winter like that past one in greece, as foxtails are one of my favourites!!

In deed the last winter in greece was a weird one! Such a prolonged cool period is very uncommon. Temperatures stayed from last september on a few degrees below average. The really cold cold-spells were rather dry and the lowest temps were not near to the record lows. In fact many regions stayed frost free, what is normal, actually.

Do you have some other tropical palms which survived?

Btw: our winter here in germany was weird, as well. Until january we had one of the mildest winters ever and I had almost all cool-hardy palms outside, like different species of phoenix, chamaerops, trachys and sabals and even my two syagrus rom. and a plumeria frangipani. but then winter went into hyper-mode!! many plants died. not mine, I took them inside, but many people have planted trachycarpus and other cold-hardy plants outside and they died almost all, or at least suffer complete defoliation... very sad!

however, I`m looking forward to the warm season :)

yes yes it is still alive and kicking ! it is opening its new leaf right now !

i have plenty of musas and palms, but most of them are seedlings with exception of phoenix roebelenii, CIDP, queens, howea , butia and washingtonias who are also not potted.

basili what kind of damage did your roystonea regia have ? how old is it ?i wasnt in greece this winter so it was overwatered and just rotted i guess...
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USDA Hardiness Zones 9b to 10a
AHS Heat Zones 8
altitude 100 meters (320 Feet)
4 km (2,4 Miles) from the Mediterranean
Posted Image
lowest ever recorded temperature -4 C (24 F)
maximum ever recored temperature 45 C (113 F)
mean minimum temperature January 7 C (44 F)
mean maximum temperature January 14 C (57 F)
mean minimum temperature July 23 C (74 F)
mean maximum temperature July 33 C (92 F)
average annual rainfall 330mm (13 Inch)
average annual sunshine 2800 hours




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