Hardiest Syagrus

[Jubaea23]

What are the top five hardiest species(including rare species)of Syagrus can survive frost and to what degree of freezing?

[Mark Heath]

What are the top five hardiest species(including rare species)of Syagrus can survive frost and to what degree of freezing?

Nigel can answer your question w/ no problem. But my two top ones are;

Santa Catarina mountain giant Queen

Bonsal (Silver Queen)

These guys should take to 18 degrees but not for a long period. Duration is the key.

I have the silver Queen and a Queen that has the same seed size/shape of the Mountain giant that is an offspring of one of the very few survivors of the 1989 cold blast here in Central Florida.

It dropped here to 18degrees and never rose above freezing for an entire day and 98% of the Queens were killed.

Both of these Queen varieties can take frost no problem.

[Nigel]

What are the top five hardiest species(including rare species)of Syagrus can survive frost and to what degree of freezing?

Nigel can answer your question w/ no problem. But my two top ones are;

Santa Catarina mountain giant Queen

Bonsal (Silver Queen)

These guys should take to 18 degrees but not for a long period. Duration is the key.

I have the silver Queen and a Queen that has the same seed size/shape of the Mountain giant that is an offspring of one of the very few survivors of the 1989 cold blast here in Central Florida.

It dropped here to 18degrees and never rose above freezing for an entire day and 98% of the Queens were killed.

Both of these Queen varieties can take frost no problem.

Mark interesting post, I had always thought the Bonsal was probably another name for a santa catarina but do you see differences ?

Interestingly in the other queen thread, Pindo posted some pics in his blog from Argentina of what he called litoralis and they looked just like our mountain queens and they also had the distinctive small round seed.

Winter got quite cold here in parts of Santa catarina and at -8C ( 18F) the queens in the mountains started to suffer some leaf tip burn.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Nigel

[Mark Heath]

Hello Nigel,

I had allways thought that Bonsal was a silver queen that was grown somewhere in California that had been shipped originally from Brazil.

But now that you mention it, my silver Queen is developing a fat trunk but i have not recieved any seed yet, it has it's first spathe developing.

I thought this because the good friend grower of mine who was originally from Cali told me this as he gave me several silver bonsal queens.

Please clear this up for me but in the meantime i will keep an eye for variations and seed size/shape.

[Nigel]

Hello Nigel,

I had allways thought that Bonsal was a silver queen that was grown somewhere in California that had been shipped originally from Brazil.

But now that you mention it, my silver Queen is developing a fat trunk but i have not recieved any seed yet, it has it's first spathe developing.

I thought this because the good friend grower of mine who was originally from Cali told me this as he gave me several silver bonsal queens.

Please clear this up for me but in the meantime i will keep an eye for variations and seed size/shape.

Mark, I shall await your first seed batch. I only wrote that because some time ago i read somewhere the Bonsals where supposedly from south brasil. If they have the small round seed then that would be confirmation.

[edbrown_III]

I left a few Syagrus yungagensis out last winter and they saw something like 20 F. They might be as cold hardy as queens . Other Syagrus species havent survived the freezes we had up here.

Best regards

Ed

[Mark Heath]

I left a few Syagrus yungagensis out last winter and they saw something like 20 F. They might be as cold hardy as queens . Other Syagrus species havent survived the freezes we had up here.

Best regards

Ed

Hello Ed, i was hoping you would chime in!

Good to know about the S.Yungagensis.

[dalmatiansoap]

Whats "Bonsal", region or ssp?

Can I find a bit more info about that one somewhere?

Thanks

[Nigel]

Bonsal, litoralis, silver queen, santa catarina queen are all types of Syagrus rom that have been sold that are known to be cold hardy types. They probably all originate in the southern part of the region where they grow ( south brasil, argentina and uruguay) .

[dalmatiansoap]

Thanks Nigel,

I have one "Santa Catarina" seedling and its extremly slow compareing it with regular queen. Well, talking about 1y/o seedlings.

[Jon T]

"Bonsall" (note spelling) is a town near the Orange/San Diego county border. Bonsall queens are prized by landscapers for their broad, thick, dark green crowns and fat trunks. A local grower or palm enthusiast popularized them in the 80s or earlier. Nurseries still tout them as a robust, fast specimen. I'm not sure whether there are anecdotal claims about cold hardiness -- I think they just get lumped in with "Santa Catarina" and "silver" queens as varieties that growers like to market, like "Riverside" sabals and "Illiwarra" archontophoenix.

[pindo]

"Bonsall" (note spelling) is a town near the Orange/San Diego county border. Bonsall queens are prized by landscapers for their broad, thick, dark green crowns and fat trunks. A local grower or palm enthusiast popularized them in the 80s or earlier. Nurseries still tout them as a robust, fast specimen. I'm not sure whether there are anecdotal claims about cold hardiness -- I think they just get lumped in with "Santa Catarina" and "silver" queens as varieties that growers like to market, like "Riverside" sabals and "Illiwarra" archontophoenix.

You are right. I agree

You must also include "litoralis"

Regards

Edited January 5, 2012 by pindo

[cfkingfish]

For what it's worth, S. vagans seems tough as a rock. I would imagine a lot of the stiff leafed Syagrus would be similar.

[edbrown_III]

I have a queen palm in the front yard I lived here since 1981 --- tree was planted out in 88 as 3 gallon.

It survived the 1989 event where we had 4 nights below 20 and bottoming of 16F. We even got 4 inches of snow in my yard --- if I were a bit more interprenuial I would be hawking this as a "Mandarin queen " as this is the part of town I live in? It looks pretty much like a regular queen except it survived that freeze. Mother possibly survived the 1962 freeze in some other part of the state. MHO

Best regards

Ed

[Eric in Orlando]

Syagrus coronata has been the 2nd hardiest species here after S. romanzoffiana.

Haven't tried S. vagans yet but have one to plant out this spring.

[Mark Heath]

I have a queen palm in the front yard I lived here since 1981 --- tree was planted out in 88 as 3 gallon.

It survived the 1989 event where we had 4 nights below 20 and bottoming of 16F. We even got 4 inches of snow in my yard --- if I were a bit more interprenuial I would be hawking this as a "Mandarin queen " as this is the part of town I live in? It looks pretty much like a regular queen except it survived that freeze. Mother possibly survived the 1962 freeze in some other part of the state. MHO

Best regards

Ed

THAT, my friend is one cold hardy Queen!!!!

[edbrown_III]

Mark

Good to hear from you Buddy ---

It was small tho at ground level so the bud wasnt up in the air. Every other queen around town that I know of got killed or the ones that were replanted after 1985

I dont know when queens arrived in Florida but you had selection the some of the plants going on in 1916, 1948, 58, 1962 so they may of been some removal . the question is were there any plants used as seed sources further norht or was it folks going back to Miami and collecting seeds again growing the same individuals up through the freezes.

Best regards

Ed

[Eric in Orlando]

Nehrling was growing queens (known as Cocos plumosa back then) in Gotha (SW of Orlando) back in the 1890s/early 1900s. I have seen old photos of downtown Orlando in the early 1900s with queen palms.

[edbrown_III]

Eric,

we know that but do we but do we know what became of the trees did the survive subsequent freezes .

The ancestry of the trees we see know we cant really document -- did some trees survive in Orlando etc after these sever freezes in 1916-1962 and the sucessors make it into cultivation or is much of the nursery stock grown from less hary trees grown further south.

This is lost in time unfortunately. I tell you it would be valuable to find a tree that had survived 1962 in Orlando and its seeds make into cultivation and survived 1983--- We dont know if this cleansed all the trees north of Vero beach and the trees you see now are just resupply from further south.

Best regards

Ed

[Eric in Orlando]

There were old ones that survived the 1962 freeze here at Leu Gardens. But all were wiped out in the 1989 freeze except a few. We have one old tall one (the other '89 survivors all had freeze damage trunks and eventually snapped in storms).

As for Orlando, I don't know if any of the queen palms that survived the freezes of the '80s are pre-1962. I don't think a whole lot were killed out in '62 around here as in the early 80's there were lots of old, extremely tall specimens. I was in high school back then and helped take care of an eldery woman's yard. She had a queen palm nearly 50ft tall. She said her husband planted in in the 1930's when the house was built. It was killed in the '89 freeze. It is the tallest queen palm I have ever seen. But she had maybe 20 others that were 30-40ft and some were wiped out in '83, some then in '85 and the rest in '89.

[floridagrower]

Eric,

I believe what you are saying, but it does not compute for me. I see very sickly and crappy queens in the countryside in this area that receive NO care whatsoever and receive teens EVERY year. Yet they still survive (the last two years included). They are in, in many cases, fully exposed pastures and are near no urban area of any sort. Furthermore, I've looked for adjacent lakes to no avail. It has to be that they are hardened off up here. There is no other explanation. These things survive mid-teens and hard frost every single year. If you want hardy queens /seeds, then look no further than the Florida panhandle.

The other point above is valid. When they die people just replace them with the same old wimps from Homestead. By now we could have amassed a great collection of hardy queens with little effort.

Edited January 7, 2012 by floridagrower

[edbrown_III]

There were old ones that survived the 1962 freeze here at Leu Gardens. But all were wiped out in the 1989 freeze except a few. We have one old tall one (the other '89 survivors all had freeze damage trunks and eventually snapped in storms).

As for Orlando, I don't know if any of the queen palms that survived the freezes of the '80s are pre-1962. I don't think a whole lot were killed out in '62 around here as in the early 80's there were lots of old, extremely tall specimens. I was in high school back then and helped take care of an eldery woman's yard. She had a queen palm nearly 50ft tall. She said her husband planted in in the 1930's when the house was built. It was killed in the '89 freeze. It is the tallest queen palm I have ever seen. But she had maybe 20 others that were 30-40ft and some were wiped out in '83, some then in '85 and the rest in '89.

Eric ,

I need to clarify the survivors of 1962 probably produced some seeds that that matured and were large trees in 1980s perhaps this is where the cold hardiness arose from --- Queens come from all parts of FL --- sensitive palms grown from lineages that were cultivated in south Florida are in the nursery trade. The tree I have in the front yard was collected as a seed from a tree at an Orlando church where my first wifes baby brother got married. This was collected I reckon around early 90s--- so it had been through some hell. The tree survived while both of the marriages didnt ( his and mine) . Perhaps this mother tree(at the church) was from an Orlando seed source that was from one of those Orlando 1962 freeze survivors --- speculation I know but this forum opens up dialogue to piece together histories as well as share the knowledge from the Brazillian folks Good to hear from you and thanks for sharing

Best regards

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Eric,

I believe what you are saying, but it does not compute for me. I see very sickly and crappy queens in the countryside in this area that receive NO care whatsoever and receive teens EVERY year. Yet they still survive (the last two years included). They are in, in many cases, fully exposed pastures and are near no urban area of any sort. Furthermore, I've looked for adjacent lakes to no avail. It has to be that they are hardened off up here. There is no other explanation. These things survive mid-teens and hard frost every single year. If you want hardy queens /seeds, then look no further than the Florida panhandle.

The other point above is valid. When they die people just replace them with the same old wimps from Homestead. By now we could have amassed a great collection of hardy queens with little effort.

Florida grower --- this sounds pretty interesting about the FL panhandle trees you might provide some pictures or more detail of them This would be welcomed on the forum.

Best regards

Ed

[floridagrower]

I only have pictures of this one weirdo queen handy. But these palms are peppered throughout the area. In general, people do not plant palms here, but they exist if you know where to look. This one is outside of town and has seen 14 degrees at least 3 times. It receives no protection and it is in a colder pocket east of Tallahassee. These same type palms exist in Monticello, FL and shockingly Quincy, FL. This one will maintain some green in the upper teens. Mid teens defoliates them totally. But yet they will live. In this same area I know of three more queens that survive the same conditions.

[Nigel]

Jeff, why do you think that is a weirdo queen it looks normal to me ?

[floridagrower]

I just mean it has survived extreme cold. I realize it appears to be a run-of-the-mill queen (and I'm sure it is). By all accounts 19 degrees + plus hard freezes killed queens through Orlando and central Florida in the 80's, even healthy mature ones. But many, often in poor health, survive these same conditions up here on the regular. My theory is that they must be hardened off. Obviously a little bit more cold and they wouldn't make it.

The point of the photo is to illustrate that these are NOT big healthy well-cared for specimens. They are simply thrown in the ground, often as 3 gallon or maybe 7 gallon plants, and then I assume they slowly harden off. I don't believe them to be special AT ALL. But if you are collecting seeds, then these should be the ones (at least in our neck of the woods).

Edited January 7, 2012 by floridagrower

[Nigel]

I just mean it has survived extreme cold. I realize it appears to be a run-of-the-mill queen (and I'm sure it is). By all account 19 degrees + plus hard freezes killed queens through Orlando and central Florida in the 80's. But many survive these same conditions up here on the regular. My theory is that they must be hardened off. Obviously a little bit more cold and they wouldn't make it.

The point of the photo is to illustrate that these are NOT big healthy well-cared for specimens. They are simply thrown in the ground, often as 3 gallons or maybe 7 gallon plants, and then I assume they slowly harden off. I don't believe them to be special AT ALL. But if you are collecting seeds, then these should be the ones (at least in our neck of the woods).

Out of interest, do you know if the seed is normal or smaller and rounded. The queens here that seem hardier all have smaller rounded seeds whether they are fat big queens or scrawny ones. The ones from more north and more tropical all have big elongated seeds, twice the size, they burn here in frosts. Alberto brought a beautiful queen from Sao Paulo and it burnt at -4C in his garden but the native queens were untouched.

[floridagrower]

I grew one from seed from one in town and the seeds where smaller and less almond shaped then ones I've seen in central Florida. One in particular near FSU had small seeds. They were more rounded with a little beak.

Edited January 7, 2012 by floridagrower

[Nigel]

I grew one from seed from one in town and the seeds where smaller and less almond shaped then ones I've seen in central Florida. One in particular near FSU had small seeds. They were more rounded with a little beak.

These are the queens from this region !!

[floridagrower]

I grew one from seed from one in town and the seeds where smaller and less almond shaped then ones I've seen in central Florida. One in particular near FSU had small seeds. They were more rounded with a little beak.

These are the queens from this region !!

I suspected this one was actually special. Regarding the one above and the numerous random other ones I see, I cannot attest to their seeds because the fruit is often removed when the owner climbs up in mid-summer to take the winter damaged brown fronds off. And they are usually on residential private property.

[iwan]

I can't comment from a record freeze standpoint, but I have been very impressed with my Syagrus oleracea. This winter is the third for it in the ground in my frost prone garden. The first two years I put rope lights on the trunk. This year it is completely unprotected (so far) and fully exposed. It has had only minor spotting and tip burn on the oldest fronds each year.

I haven't put out thermometers this year, but official airport temps were in the mid-20's F. Being in a rural location our temperatures are typically 3-5 degrees lower. Estimated lows last month were in the 22-23F range. My Syagrus oleracea looks better than similarly sized queens in the same general area. The queens typically spot and yellow. Syagrus oleracea seems to hold fronds more upright, hence less exposure to frost (my presumption).

Time will tell, but I would certainly try more (if I could find them).

Syagrus picorplylla under frost cloth has some spotting, but looks pretty good. It is still 5g size so I won't let it fend totally for itself. It burned pretty bad under frost cloth last year at 1g size (less than 1yr in ground). That is all the Syagrus I have in the ground, aside from hybrids.

[Eric in Orlando]

I think most of the queens grown in central FL prior to the 1989 freeze were a more tender form. After the freezes (there were 3 devastating ones in the 80s that killed most of the queen palms off) growers began using seed from the survivors around central FL. These were hardier forms. I think a lot more of the queens in the trade are now the hardier forms.

I can remember in the eary 80s (around 81/82) we had a "normal" freeze one time, down to around 25/26F and lots of the queens around my parent's neighborhood were burnt but survived. But then all were picked off either in '83. 85 or 1989. This was a neighborhood built in the early 1950s and were taller, older queens. They all had to be very tender forms.

Any queen palm surviving mid teens in north FL have to be from hardier, southern Brazil sources.

[tank]

Store bought Queen is getting big and has withstood the past 4 winters here in Gainesville with only minor leaf damage (low of 17-15F here in town) with no overhead protection. It is now about 18ft overall. May relate to Eric's theory on the selection of hardier queens here in FL.

[buffy]

Out of interest, do you know if the seed is normal or smaller and rounded. The queens here that seem hardier all have smaller rounded seeds whether they are fat big queens or scrawny ones. The ones from more north and more tropical all have big elongated seeds, twice the size, they burn here in frosts. Alberto brought a beautiful queen from Sao Paulo and it burnt at -4C in his garden but the native queens were untouched.

Nigel: I don't remember the "Mountain Queen" seeds you shared with me a few years ago being rounded. I'd say they were rather elongated. Maybe I haven't seen enough of them.

[Mark Heath]

Store bought Queen is getting big and has withstood the past 4 winters here in Gainesville with only minor leaf damage (low of 17-15F here in town) with no overhead protection. It is now about 18ft overall. May relate to Eric's theory on the selection of hardier queens here in FL.

Jason,

That is a good specimen to keep producing seeing it took those temps!! You are fortunate to have that one,

Mark

[pindo]

Nigel

What is the minimum temperatures in the highlands of Santa Catarina?

In my country, in cities like Mar del Plata, Bahia Blanca, Buenos Aires and Rosario, the winters are common temperatures of 18 º F or less, and Queens grow up without any damage

You can see the minimum at this link

http://palmasenresistencia.blogspot.com/2009/09/zonas-climaticas-en-argentina.html

[Nigel]

Nigel

What is the minimum temperatures in the highlands of Santa Catarina?

In my country, in cities like Mar del Plata, Bahia Blanca, Buenos Aires and Rosario, the winters are common temperatures of 18 º F or less, and Queens grow up without any damage

You can see the minimum at this link

http://palmasenresistencia.blogspot.com/2009/09/zonas-climaticas-en-argentina.html

I think the lowest recorded temperature in SC is -18c. Last winter most places in the mountains saw between -6C and -10C , but that was colder than normal.

Buffy your seeds were small and rounded !!

[Nigel]

Pindo, there is a guy who posts on another board with a uruguay queen, also super hardy. I think all the queens from the southern half of the range are much hardier. The advantage as I see it of a mountain queen from here rather than the coastal type would be not just they are a huge and robust type but also rarely see temps of 30C so have a lower heat requirement.

[Cikas]

What are the top five hardiest species(including rare species)of Syagrus can survive frost and to what degree of freezing?

Bump

interesting question.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

In order of most hardy to least hardy:

syagrus romanzoffiana 20F

syagrus kellyana 24F

Syagrus picrophylla 25F

syagrus schizophylla x romanzoffiana 25F

syagrus coronata x picrophylla 26F

Read the fine print: Your mileage may vary.