This is what bad drainage looks like

[DALION]

I know I have VERY poor drainage since I have over 75% clay soil. I decided to test the drainage by digging a hole and filling it with water. Thjis is what I got.

I started by digging an 11 inch deep hole (too lazy to dig deeper) 10" x 10" x 11" approximate size

I poured 2 gallons of water from a watering can. Water measured about 9.5 inches.

After 3.5 hours water level was approximately 8 inches.

A little over 19 hours. Water is moving slow so no need to measure so often. Still over 4 inches to go.

25.5 hours and still counting. About 2.5 inches left to drain.

29 hours from when it was filled and there is still 2 inches to go. I'd say the gound is saturated.

31 hours and the last picture for the night. Since it is now draining at about a quarter inch every 2 hours, I'll look in the morning if there is anything left. I'm guessing 14 more hours to drain.

[palmsnbananas]

WOW.. I thought I had bad clay! That's insane, what happens when you mow your lawn, do you need to build an ark??

[Cedric]

Dalion when you dig open the clay soil is it dry or already damp?

[Jastin]

i dug a 4 foot wide by 5' deep hole when I planted my Caryota because of bad drainage. The following winter I found out it was a mistake because I was out there every rain with my shop vac sucking out 100 gal of water through my french drain. Now 2.5 years later its just starting to drain from me packing the drain with gypsum. I feel ya Dalion. Funny thing is is I dont have any clay, did a test and came up with 60% sand and 40% silt.

[DoomsDave]

Dalion:

Your drainage isn't the greatest, but I've seen much worse. I've had places in my own yard that didn't drain at all, for a week (too cold to evaporate much).

That said, you will find that some plants will like soil that holds lots of water, especially in the summer when it gets hot. Examples include Archontophoenix and Roystonea, plus Rhopalistylus sapida (but not baueri).

Plants to be careful about include avocados, which HATE slow drainage.

Also, don't write off your entire yard based on one hole.

Dig several test holes, in different spots. In particular, check right next to your house, and driveway (usually bad) and areas away to the edge of a lot (usually better).

Also, try going deeper. You may have clay that's not deep, and lies over much better draining soil.

Knowledge is power . . . .

[DoomsDave]

i dug a 4 foot wide by 5' deep hole when I planted my Caryota because of bad drainage. The following winter I found out it was a mistake because I was out there every rain with my shop vac sucking out 100 gal of water through my french drain. Now 2.5 years later its just starting to drain from me packing the drain with gypsum. I feel ya Dalion. Funny thing is is I dont have any clay, did a test and came up with 60% sand and 40% silt.

Silt should drain okay. That's the best soil of all, you are lucky. Though you're probably at the bottom of a hill which isn't good for freezes.

[trioderob]

thats horid drainage

[Palmə häl′ik]

Time to rent a bobcat and handle some bizness! BouncyBouncy wooohooo

If you could truck in a couple yards of good soil to mix in you'd be golden...

There's gotta be some 'ol dairy farm or chicken farm in the country that'll sell some fill yardage... HELLO craigslist.

U growin' any Ravenea rivularis by any chance... They too would have a real nice time there!

~Ray.

[pogobob]

Either move, or start a brick factory

[palmcurry]

I know this song all to well. I ripped out a ficus in November 2010. When the torrential rains hit the follow Inc December it filled the 26" hole with rain water and stayed that way till March. The clay at my place is like wet concrete that's 95%the dry. Here is how I usually fight my uphill battle with th clay condition.

I dig my holes until its up to my knees when I stand in them...at least. Then put in gypsum and water it in and lather the sides of the clay hole. Next layer in is pure compost. Home made and not store bought(fresh, as it were) Compost breaks down clay. After that I fill it with a soil/compost mix and stamp on it with my body wieght to compact it down so the tree doesn't sink 3 years down the road when the compost dissipates to nothing. Then around the hole I built a raised bed. The upper portion the plant gets set in is a lighter soil mix that I add compost to regularly. Doing all this,I figure, will give the roots somewhere around 26"hole to fill in before they hit clay.

I've never lost a palm to the overfilling from rain water(yet, knock on wood) but I do water very sparingly. Some areas I put a 3'good long sharpens stick in the bed and pull it out before watering to check the moisture down at the bottom.

[joe_OC]

Mulch mulch mulch...add a ton of organics in and let mother nature work. I would add red worms as well. It is not a fast process. It will take a few years, but you will be rewarded with nice loamy soil.

[MattyB]

Dalion,

Your soil is obviously completely devoid of any organic matter, so that's the good news. It can only get better. Raised beds like Palmcurry is describing (which I think I remember you saying that you were doing 15" tall raised beds already) will completely solve your problem. The great thing about your soil is the water retention cababilities. For most plants, once established, if you keep your beds well mulched, you will not have to water more than once a week, even in the hottest times of Summer. You may even find that you can water less than that, especially around large trees, cycads, and things that don't mind drying out a bit. Your water bill should be very small.

[richnorm]

Don't despair Dalion, clay is great soil with a little management (drainage, gypsum and organic mulches as stated above). Test plantings with drainage sensitive plants (like avocado, tamarillo etc) can help you get to know your trouble spots and give confidence. Bananas can be used as water pumps and soil breakers in the establishment phase and provide good shelter.

cheers

Richard

[MattyB]

Bananas as "water pumps". What a great idea!

I've used agressive dicot trees as soil breakers as well. Just plant them all over, use them as temporary shade material or place holders, and cut them down as you need the space for the more desireable plants. Theoretically the agressive tap roots will go down, penetrate the hard soil, expand, breaking it apart. When you cut the tree down, the roots are left in the ground to rot away and now you have mulch delivered to your subsurface soil for free. You can create worm superhighways that go deep into the dirt. Tomatoes are good for this too because they are very fast growing and have very deep root systems, not to mention the delicious fruit they bare.

[Got Palms]

Dalion clay soil gets a bad rap because of drainage but in the long run clay has tons of nutrients waiting to be released. Don't create ponds when planting make your hole just big enough for original container the palm came in and mound if you can , plus lots of mulch and a good drip system will get you great results, as you can see all my palms are suffering because of my clay soil.

[DoomsDave]

Dalion, I'll bet your garden is like mine.

Come for a visit, and I'll show what can be done.

Best

dave

[DALION]

Dalion when you dig open the clay soil is it dry or already damp?

That area where the hole is was not watered in years other than rainfall (about 2 weeks ago) but you can see in the first picture the clay is humid.

Dalion,

Your soil is obviously completely devoid of any organic matter, so that's the good news. It can only get better. Raised beds like Palmcurry is describing (which I think I remember you saying that you were doing 15" tall raised beds already) will completely solve your problem. The great thing about your soil is the water retention cababilities. For most plants, once established, if you keep your beds well mulched, you will not have to water more than once a week, even in the hottest times of Summer. You may even find that you can water less than that, especially around large trees, cycads, and things that don't mind drying out a bit. Your water bill should be very small.

Matt

I did build a raised planter and will truck in better soil in the spring. I have always heard that clay has tons of nutrients so it's not a bad thing to have other than the drainage issue which my french drain will hopefully fix.

Dalion clay soil gets a bad rap because of drainage but in the long run clay has tons of nutrients waiting to be released. Don't create ponds when planting make your hole just big enough for original container the palm came in and mound if you can , plus lots of mulch and a good drip system will get you great results, as you can see all my palms are suffering because of my clay soil.

Your yard looks like something out of Hawaii or Florida. It looks amazing. And, I have heard about digging hole just the size of the pot to avoid too much water from pooling at the roots.

[DALION]

Dalion, I'll bet your garden is like mine.

Come for a visit, and I'll show what can be done.

Best

dave

Dave

I would love to go visit you some day. My cousin (and babysitter) lives in La Habra near Harbor and Imperial so you can't be too far from them. I might learn a thing or two or three from you.

Leo

[_Keith]

Dalion clay soil gets a bad rap because of drainage but in the long run clay has tons of nutrients waiting to be released. Don't create ponds when planting make your hole just big enough for original container the palm came in and mound if you can , plus lots of mulch and a good drip system will get you great results, as you can see all my palms are suffering because of my clay soil.

WOW

[Jastin]

i dug a 4 foot wide by 5' deep hole when I planted my Caryota because of bad drainage. The following winter I found out it was a mistake because I was out there every rain with my shop vac sucking out 100 gal of water through my french drain. Now 2.5 years later its just starting to drain from me packing the drain with gypsum. I feel ya Dalion. Funny thing is is I dont have any clay, did a test and came up with 60% sand and 40% silt.

Silt should drain okay. That's the best soil of all, you are lucky. Though you're probably at the bottom of a hill which isn't good for freezes.

I've heard that the white color signifies lack of nutrients. I've been wanting to do a legit soil test to see what's up but I'm actually at the very top of my hill and have never got below 33-35, very lucky! Most places in my yard don't drain but then some I can hold a hose too and it will never fill up.

[Cedric]

I like that idea from MattyB to let aggressive roots do the job. An excellent plant for this is the fast growing Strelizia nicolai. Nicolai has lovely thick roots too that will punch through nicely. Although relatively short lived Caryota gigas if your humidity is up to it will also do this for you, just dont drown it every time you water.

Its possible to correct any soil with tons of top soil raised beds, deep drainage and what not, but going with the flow is far better in my opinion.

On this I've also heard that one should treat clay with respect and disturb it as little as possible. Make small shallow holes as has been said, let the roots find the best way through the clay structure. I see some wiry roots in your hole already and what look like layers so thats a good sign.

I did garden once on red clay in Africa and found many things grew very well though especially those natives already growing on clay. I had about a meter or three of pure and ancient sand dune on top of the clay so all in all a bit of a fright but in no time I had a sand dune forest making its own leaf litter mulch and compost where bird brought seedlings thrived. Phoenix reclinata, Strelizia nicolai grew like weeds turning the clay into play dough, digging one of these out was extremely hard work but I did it to build a house and found the roots were all over the place anchored deep in the clay.

[LJG]

Dalion clay soil gets a bad rap because of drainage but in the long run clay has tons of nutrients waiting to be released. Don't create ponds when planting make your hole just big enough for original container the palm came in and mound if you can , plus lots of mulch and a good drip system will get you great results, as you can see all my palms are suffering because of my clay soil.

Looks like one of your neighbors CIDPs has Fusarium Wilt?

[Got Palms]

Dalion clay soil gets a bad rap because of drainage but in the long run clay has tons of nutrients waiting to be released. Don't create ponds when planting make your hole just big enough for original container the palm came in and mound if you can , plus lots of mulch and a good drip system will get you great results, as you can see all my palms are suffering because of my clay soil.

Looks like one of your neighbors CIDPs has Fusarium Wilt?

Len CIDP's look healthy too me but maybe u know better if the palm is sick what do u suggest, he has not trimmed dead fronds going on 8 years now. will post a pic of said palm in another thread so as not to jack Dalion's thread thanks.