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What to do with this info?

47 posts in this topic

Now that we are getting all this great info, what do we do with it?

Should we allow it to stay open, and let those in Texas or Florida contribute, if/when they get zapped?

Should we try to condense it, and try to create our own Hardiness Guide to Palms?

What do you all think?

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I think it should be region specific. People in other regions are welcome to glean info if they like from Calif freeze, but conditions may not match(humidity,etc). My 2 cents..

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I think you should keep the info specific to the actual event that happened and name and date the thread accordingly.

As Steve pointed out, 28 degrees may be 28 degrees, but as we have seen, duration, humidity levels, wind speed (or lack thereof) and topography etc. have played major roles in determining what damage occurred where during this event.

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Hmm.  Excellent questions!

Yeah, 28 F in Florida or Texas isn't the same as here in Cali.  

When the time comes, people from other places should also participate.  "Segging" information could yield valuable insights later.

It would also be good to see how palms recover from, say hurrican or tornado damage.  We don't get much of that here, but when we do . . . .

dave

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Not sure, but I think it would be more convenient to keep this all in one place and let people comment about the species listed as long as they are as specific as possible about all the variables. This might mean that some of the posts need to be edited to be more specific. Otherwise, the IPS board is going to have several different freeze forums corresponding to different parts of the world. Californians, this time your freeze was dry and radiational, next time you may have more humidity and have a more "florida" like freeze. Also, our next freeze here may be nearly as dry as yours was. We just need to be very specific about conditions when we post to this freeze forum. Temperature and humidity data are obviously important. Wind yes. Concurrent precipitation yes. Duration below 32F/0C would be important too. Geography - yes and no - similar conditions can be recreated in very different geographies around the world. Dean, I recommend that you standardize a way that this forum be posted to. (create a set of variables that need to be filled in as best as possible). And Dean, you are more than welcome to make a freeze forum for every different region of the palm growing world that experiences freezes and frost but.....

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Sorry for the rant, but I think this a truly wonderful opportunity to begin creating the authoritative database about palm frost and freeze hardiness that transcends local, state and national borders.  :)

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Personallly, I would just leave it the way it is. It is simple by species and variety. I might add the header that this is California. If Texas or Florida gets blasted (as Texas is) you could add sub-groups by state. I, for one, will be searching out this info come spring when I inevidably will be looking for a few (or many) new palms

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I realize that regions are different and starting a new thread for each reigonal area would be a bit easier/logical for those needing the information to access. But if it is kept as a general group discussion, maybe it would be best to state where each contributor is from.

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I guess I am the only dissenter on this one. But I still think it would be nice to click Roystonea regia for example and read about all the different freeze and frost exeperinces with that species from multiple events from multiple places. Maybe I am totally wrong in my thinking, but I think we all (or most of us anyway in frost and freeze prone areas) have the potential to experience a freeze with similar variables that may eventually be documented in this forum so all information is relevant to all of us! Say you had a radiational freeze with 24F ultimate low with 20% humidity, no wind, no precip, 8 hours duration. That would be a totally plausible freeze situation in FL, TX and elsewhere. SO, I do think we all could glean useful information from each other if posted in the same place. I know threads could eventually get huge after a few years, but hey, I would not mind reading 180 posts about different frost and freeze situations regarding Roystonea regia.

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(ruskinPalms @ Jan. 16 2007,15:45)

QUOTE
Dean, I recommend that you standardize a way that this forum be posted to. (create a set of variables that need to be filled in as best as possible).

Now I hope you all know that I love each and everyone of you  :D

but..............................................

If I could only standardize a format and have people follow it,  I would be a genie. If you only knew how many members I have had to PM and remind them to go back and include the temp in their post. A structured format...............it ain't gonna happen.

That is part of the beauty of the Forum. It's lack of format and life of it's own. It's too wild to tame and have all this info displayed in nice neat rows and columns. But I think there is a lot of great info being laid out for those that want to look for it.

My initial thoughts are to keep this open for all as a general hardiness data base. To have separate sections for different locations and different events would become too cumbersome. If you are astute, you will be able to check the date and the location of a post and determine how valuable the info is to you.

Because how this info applies to each and everyone of you is so different, I can tell you what I would like to see. Instead of specific temps at which a palm succumbs, I would like to see a ranking of the hardiness of palms. This would seem to be of great value for everyone regardless of specific microclimates.

For example in a list from hardy to not so hardy:

Jubaea - Queen - King - Kentia - Foxtail - Veitchia sp. - Coconut - Sealing Wax

Where would you place Bismarkia, D. decipiens, C. gigas, C. savoryanum?

Think how useful that could be. If your Foxtail died from cold, then you know everything on the list below that is out.

Perhaps all this info should stay here in it's raw form, and just have it available for anyone who wishes to peruse and condense it to a more usable format.

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Bill..no one is saying you can't use this resource. Too early to say how it will all evolve, maybe it'll work out that it's all combined, maybe seperated into regions. Go with the flow for now...

And Bill's right..we must be specific re conditions...YOU NEED TO PUT TEMPS IN YOUR POSTS

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Dean, I agree whole heartedly with you. Maybe I was bit presuptuous in asking for a standard format. I know you have a life outside this forum and don't want to be organizing and babysitting all of us  :)  I was mainly just pushing to keep all of the data about a particular species in the same place. I didn't want to check 5 or 6 sub forums about freeze data on a single species.

Californians, I was not trying to downplay or dilute your current agony in any way by polluting it with data from previous freezes in different places. I just saw this new sub forum as an opportunity to somewhat organize what we already know, what we are currently learning and what we will learn in the future.

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each garden is unique - it'd be extremely difficult to categorize every microclimate, not to mention the differing sizes of each specimen (size does matter)

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(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Jan. 16 2007,22:29)

QUOTE
Bill..no one is saying you can't use this resource. Too early to say how it will all evolve, maybe it'll work out that it's all combined, maybe seperated into regions. Go with the flow for now...

And Bill's right..we must be specific re conditions...YOU NEED TO PUT TEMPS IN YOUR POSTS

Steve, that is my point. I do think that I can use all of this data coming from this freeze, just like I think you can use the data from my next freeze here. My palms don't know if they are under canopy or not, at the top of a hill or in the bottom of a canyon. All they know is that it was 24 F for an ultimate low, there was no wind, the humidy was 20%, it was under 32 for 8 hours etc. What is the differnce if the conditions got that way from a cold air drainage down a steep slope or from just plain old radiation on a flat plain after a front passage?

Agreed that I should just go with the flow and back off on this idea of incorporating data from other freeze events in different places and times. Everyone needs time you mourn and regroup. Sorry all, my posts recently may have been in poor taste and timing.  :(

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Bill,

I don't think any apology is necessary. At least not to me. We're good.  :)

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My palms don't know if they are under canopy or not, at the top of a hill or in the bottom of a canyon. All they know is that it was 24 F for an ultimate low, there was no wind, the humidy was 20%, it was under 32 for 8 hours etc.

I agree that we don't need to know all the speculations and theories about our cold drainage and stuff, that's just part of the thinking process.  But I don't agree that your palms don't know if they're under a canopy or not.  One of the most important factors in this event was either the presence of absence of canopy. Even if half the palm was under some sort of canopy, that half always fared much better by not "seeing" the sky.

As far as what to do with this info?  Yeah Fl, Tx, & CA are all different but after hearing all the points above, I think it's best to just have everyone post all their info here in the Freeze Damage forum and include as much detail as possible.  Then after winter maybe someone could create a chart using all the info and we could have a link from the IPS home page.  We should all be including:  the low temp recorded, if the palm was under any cover, planted under a canopy, or next to a wall or house, duration of below freezing temps if possible but if you don't have a log or were awake all night (like Dave) then most people won't know, and ultimately what damage was seen.  I suspect that we'll see some more damage show up in a few days so if that happens then we should edit our posts as needed.

This is not an exact science or controlled experiment so experiences and recordings are going to vary quite a bit.  Letting the forum soak up our experiences by filling up this forum with everyones posts (not just CA) may yeild enough data though to make a useful chart by the end of winter but as of now I think that most of the data being posted is less than thorough.  Sorry guys no offense.

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Being completely out of the loop on this one I was just curious to see what's going on so I clicked on this thread. I think Dean's suggestion about a list with hardy to less than hardy is absolutely outstanding. That list would be relevant no matter where you happen to live, coastal SoCal, inland SoCal, TX or FL. Because of climatic differences, a palm that will tolerate a low of 25F in one area may tolerate more, or less, in a different area, or maybe even in the same area given somewhat different conditions (amount of humidity, length of coldspell etc.), BUT it's probably safe to assume that palms that have been proven to be more, or less, tender, will be just as sensitive (or not!) no matter what your location. Since many palms are going to have similar cold tolerance it might be useful to divide them up into 8-10 groups or so, depending on perceived cold tolerance. This type of list could conceivably be THE most important piece of information for someone who wants to plant palms. However, it would probably be next to impossible to make up a list, species by species, one after another.

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Dean- I like the palm scale. Would 1 to 100 be better than 1 to 10?   I like a 1 to 100 scale, a lot of nuances out there.                          I would also try to have only info from the most recent freezes be included, that way info is fresh and raw. It can be reedited in the future as Matty said.  "No way back recollections" over the next year, I'm sure the data base would grow fine.                             IF it does get larger, how about a "Date, location, type " Freeze chart on a master no-post link.    Such as  "Jan13-17th 2007 California dry radiational freeze. Temps into low 20's."   That way, if someone is posting about their frost, if it was big enough to get on the chart, overall details could be known.

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Dean, for now I think if you can sort the threads alphabetically it will be easier to reference species quickly and prevent duplications.

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Dean, I think all freeze results - regardless of the location or event - should be in this thread.  Since the posts are chronological, posts on each freeze event would naturally appear grouped together, wouldn't they?

I think that after a freeze, the data could be put into a larger (non-forum) list on the IPS site - listed by palm species.  The way the Observation Database appears separately from the forum on the CFPACS site.  Except that the obs would be gleaned from the posts.  Each species of palm would include - if possible:

Date, time, location of freeze

Minimum temp and duration of freeze

Presence or absence of frost (if known)

Size of palm and conditions it was growing in (if available)

Protection used (if any), natural or artificial

Damage to the palm.

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Sunny-

I think it will be easier to know "Size of palm and conditions it was growing in (if available) "  than it would be

to know " duration of freeze" unless you were up all night.....   :)

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I guess I am the only dissenter on this one. But I still think it would be nice to click Roystonea regia for example and read about all the different freeze and frost exeperinces with that species from multiple events from multiple places. Maybe I am totally wrong in my thinking, but I think we all (or most of us anyway in frost and freeze prone areas) have the potential to experience a freeze with similar variables that may eventually be documented in this forum so all information is relevant to all of us! Say you had a radiational freeze with 24F ultimate low with 20% humidity, no wind, no precip, 8 hours duration. That would be a totally plausible freeze situation in FL, TX and elsewhere. SO, I do think we all could glean useful information from each other if posted in the same place. I know threads could eventually get huge after a few years, but hey, I would not mind reading 180 posts about different frost and freeze situations regarding Roystonea regia.

I tend to agree with Bill on this one, because the more info you know about a species with regard to cold-hardiness, the more you will be prepared when you plant it..  I think we've learned (unfortunately at alot of people's expense) more about cold-hardiness of certain palms than we ever would have normally, becuase of a perception. For example, after seeing the constant sub-freezing temps in New Mexico and seeing NMpalm's Trachy survive more snow than I've ever seen, I have absolutely no doubt that I could grow one here - something I might not have tried had I not seen his - so I think this info will expand alot of people's planting selections.

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(ruskinPalms @ Jan. 16 2007,21:19)

QUOTE
I guess I am the only dissenter on this one. But I still think it would be nice to click Roystonea regia for example and read about all the different freeze and frost exeperinces with that species from multiple events from multiple places. Maybe I am totally wrong in my thinking, but I think we all (or most of us anyway in frost and freeze prone areas) have the potential to experience a freeze with similar variables that may eventually be documented in this forum so all information is relevant to all of us! Say you had a radiational freeze with 24F ultimate low with 20% humidity, no wind, no precip, 8 hours duration. That would be a totally plausible freeze situation in FL, TX and elsewhere. SO, I do think we all could glean useful information from each other if posted in the same place. I know threads could eventually get huge after a few years, but hey, I would not mind reading 180 posts about different frost and freeze situations regarding Roystonea regia.

I think this idea might be a good option as well.

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Hmm.

On further sober thought, maybe just do a CRDB thing, and have testimonials, with the data.

I've been adding updates, as the horra unfolds, when it's all over -- (WHEN!) just use my latest post.

For what it's worth . . .

dave

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(BS @ Man about Palms,Jan. 17 2007,09:37)

QUOTE
Sunny-

I think it will be easier to know "Size of palm and conditions it was growing in (if available) "  than it would be

to know " duration of freeze" unless you were up all night.....   :)

and that is exactly what I did, years ago, the night we hit 27F. :D

because I'm obsessed, that's why.

Seriously, though, I think weather stations would record this info without your having to be out in the yard all night in your jammies, watching the mercury drop.  :)

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(SunnyFl @ Jan. 17 2007,22:01)

QUOTE

(BS @ Man about Palms,Jan. 17 2007,09:37)

QUOTE
Sunny-

I think it will be easier to know "Size of palm and conditions it was growing in (if available) "  than it would be

to know " duration of freeze" unless you were up all night.....   :)

and that is exactly what I did, years ago, the night we hit 27F. :D

because I'm obsessed, that's why.

Seriously, though, I think weather stations would record this info without your having to be out in the yard all night in your jammies, watching the mercury drop.  :)

I suspect most of us don't have weather stations...YET.

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I have (4) wireless weather transmittters & Receivers that I bought at Radio Shack for $20.00... they work great. I have one of them in each of my enclosures and one outside to monitor lowest temps... It stores the absolute lowest & Highest temps for a period until you reset it.

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Bobby, thats more of less what I have.  I thought sunny was talking about one of those "real" weather stations like TV stations depend on....

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I actually got a weather station for christmas. It is not too bad. It hooks up to weather underground and is a very integrated solution. It has everything in one pole except the rain gauge (which I have not found a good place for my rain gauge yet that is not irrigated by my sprinkler system). Very easy to set up and it works well! It has a passive solar radiation shield built in that seems to work OK, not as good as one that is actively aspirated by a fan, but ok. For example, today my older digital hi/lo that does not have a proper shield registered 80.5 as a high today, while my new weather station with shielding registered 73.9F as a high, both are wide open to the sun.

Here is a link - abot $200 for the station plus the software that links to weather underground which is a must if you are going to have a decent weather station!

http://www.ambientweather.com/orscwmweunpa.html

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Well,

We sure are getting an incredible amount of valuable info. Way more than I had anticipated, from a lot of people I would never have expected. Perhaps we could accomplish something very worthwhile. Let me tell you where my thoughts have been flowing recently.

Bo is right. To have all the palms in a 1-1200 ranking would be nice, but impossible. However, if we could initially come up with 10-12 groupings, that would be a major accomplishment in and of itself. After that, within each group we could try to rank if we chose to.

But how would we go about it? Several people would have to get involved. It would require a lot of work, and probably a lot of haggling between those people as they discussed different species.

Has anyone out there had any experience with a wiki? I know very little about them, but from what I know this might be the perfect vehicle to involve everyone who is interested, and to compile all this info in a constantly evolving format. I will do a little reasearch myself, but it would be nice if someone already had some exposure or experience with this type of tool.

Let's try and stay on topic with what to do with this freeze info. If you wish to discuss weather stations, start a new thread. In fact, that would be a good idea to have a dedicated thread for this important topic.

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(IPSPTModerator @ Jan. 19 2007,00:50)

QUOTE
if we could initially come up with 10-12 groupings, that would be a major accomplishment in and of itself. After that, within each group we could try to rank if we chose to.

But how would we go about it? Several people would have to get involved. It would require a lot of work, and probably a lot of haggling between those people as they discussed different species.

Has anyone out there had any experience with a wiki? I know very little about them

Dean, I don't know anything about wikis - and I'm just a rank novice at palm growing - but if you end up needing someone to transcribe the posts into a specific format (or other tasks not requiring an expert :) ), I'd be happy to help.  Just let me know.  I think this is a terrific project, and at least it may help those who have suffered real losses to see something worthwhile come out of it.

(Dave from So-Cal @ Jan 16. 2007,20:04)

QUOTE
It would also be good to see how palms recover from, say hurrican or tornado damage.  We don't get much of that here, but when we do . . . .

Having a wind-resistance database would be a great addition, esp. since the weather everywhere is getting more extreme.  It's helpful to know how palms handle damaging wind.  Both Santa Anas and hurricanes; dry, desiccating wind vs. the wet lashing gales of a cane.  Tornados, though?  Unless it's just a landspout, the palm's probably toast.  VOE, unfortunately.

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and btw, thank you for the alphabetical sort by species.  It's a fascinating read.

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Thanks for the offer Sunny. Will keep that in mind.

A wiki is a facinating way for group participation in organizing data on an ongoing evolving format. Wikipedia is the most famous example. Hundreds of thousands of people have contributed to create it, and it is never static, constantly updating and changing. Could be a perfect format to organize and update all this palm data.

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I haven't had time to read all the posts in this thread, so I'm sorry if this is repeating something someone else has sead...but if this data is really going to be used for a database, I think it would be best if people submitted spreadsheets (like Excel) with all of their data in some simple format.  At least it would be nice to have this option.  I have about 75 palms in the ground and none have any direct damage.  My hi/lo thermometer got down to 33F but I do have some minor to moderate freeze damage on bananas.  So it's probably worth listing everything that didn't get damaged by temps at right around freezing.  I do have time to take my list of palms in the ground and submit it with my general temperature profile from the event.  But I don't have time to enter this info over and over again in each species post.  

I believe that having the data in spreadsheet format with the temperature/weather/climate information listed once that applies to all the palms in the spreadsheet would save whoever ends up having to enter this a whole lot of time.  

Someone (I could even do it I guess) could create an Excel template for the weather, temps, and climate data.  And then on a separate worksheet you could list all palms species (there are already lists on the web taht could be copied to an excel sheet), and each person could fill in data for the ones they have.  You could have a column for a simple rating (i.e. 10 = no damage at all, 0 = instant death) and a column where people could write more detail and testimonial.

If it is done in this way, a database could be created easily (and automated) by uploading all the data from these standardized files.

Matt

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Whilst I agree that 28°F in SoCal is different to 28°F elsewhere, you could also argue that 28°F in one SoCal garden is different even to the next town.  Add to that the difference in size/age of palm, microclimate, duration of low temperature, day time temperature/light levels, wind speed/direction and humidity any data is going to be unique.  If there was sufficient data, i.e. 100 people growing Dypsis onilahensis of similar size within a 2 mile radius, then it may be worthwhile localising the info, but with so many other factors effecting damage/survival, I would think it is best to keep information fairly general, at least that way people will know that a plant can survive or die at a certain temperature.  Let's face it, there are never any guarantees, but knowing that plants have died or survived due to a certain temperature, regardless or locality, will at least give some information on which we can base future decisions.  I would guess we all do our best to optimize our own growing conditions, so if we know that a plant can survive a certain temperature, we can then aim to replicate that survival.

Unfortunately growing palms will never be an exact science, especially with each plant being individual.  With weather forecasting being similarly lacking in exactness, general information is far more useful than specifics.

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Info on low temps would be useful but any data from the UK would be very difficult indeed as our conditions are often remarkably different even over a small distance.

On a map Corey and I might appear to live fairly closely but I have much greater coastal exposure (often feels cold to us humans due to the winds but plants know the difference!) I am just 16 houses from the seafront.

Its not just temps as there appears to be other factors at work: here for instance many plants and palms appear to appreciate the buoyant air conditions.

From the plant point of view its a real treat.

As a small Island we have of course a great many coastal gardens (some very well known) such as Ventnor BG, many in Cornwall, the Channel Isles, Western Scotland, Ireland and even Essex that are growing "tender" plants very well and that will not do well  in central England.

We have learnt over the years to know our microclimates and be versatile hence it was Brits that shaped and designed many a Riviera garden hence Prom.de Anglais and Croissant (Crescent) at Cannes seafront.

An interesting subject.

Regardez

Juan

Regardez

Juan

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I think we should have some file method. Such as the

1- California freeze 2007

And continue the list. Perhaps in a  month or so once we have all the info we should file it so next time there is a freeze we can make another topic.

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Zach,

I am extremely limited in the options for filing.

I could rename this entire forum 2007 Cal Freeze. However, If No. Florida has a freeze next year, and Australia during their winter, we could eventually end up with a bunch of freeze forums. Probably not a good idea.

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As a guy with a PMA to everything in more ways than one I actually think its an impossibility to do this.

I believe we should keep it simple and just give the conditions, soil, climate, protection (if any) and temps our palms have endured.

Then guys can make their own minds up as any table is not practical or even useful I reckon.

Life and palms are sure not that easy . . .

My two cents or 1p UK!

Regardez

Juan

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Give all the info to Geoff so he can update his Palms for Southern California book which is ALREADY the source book for palms in California.  

I got it out today and walked around the garden and he was pretty much spot on with his palm minimum temperatures.

Why try and reinvent the wheel when there is already a great book which just may require minor tuning.

Just my thoughts

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