Miami And The Tropic Of Cancer

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I realize the Tropic of Cancer is an important area on the earth.

What makes the sun appear directly overhead on the summer solstice? I know the tilt of the earth has something to do with it but :

*Is the curve of the earth steeper or different in that part of the world and that also contributes? It appears so when you look at Miami and the tropics ( from the side ) of a Google Earth download

* Is it necessary to go somewhat below the Tropic of Cancer to get tropical level sunlight intensity, vegetation etc. or is Miami close enough to the tropic line to get those benefits most of the year?

*If you had to compare latitude 25 N to the true official tropics ( 23N - 23 S) how does it compare?

I am curious about this as I would like to go to San Juan, Puerto Rico and compare it with Miami. But if they are very a like then I could save money and just stay here.

Edited by Rick Santos
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its all about the tilt of the earth in relation to the sun. during the summer the tropic of cancer is the closest point to the sun.

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At true midday on June 21(northern summer solstice), Miami would have the sun almost directly overhead ie 1.5 degrees off being 90 degrees overhead, or 88.5 degrees (almost overhead but slightly to the south). On the equator, this directly overhead period happens twice, once on March 21, and the other on Sep 21 on the equinoxes. Outside the tropics this directly overhead situation never happens and within the tropics it will always happen twice a year except for those directly on the tropic of cancer or tropic of capricorn.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Rick,

I guess this has something to do with the question you sent me. Anyway, Miami and I would say Broward county get too cold to be truely tropical. They are close and most things grow, but not all. By tropical I would also define it as low land tropical as there are a lot of climates in the tropics. In equatorial zones there is little variation in day length and as a plus no hurricanes. And, in low land areas it will NEVER freeze. But, Air conditioning is a plus.

dk

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The only part of the contiguous US that is truly tropical is the lower Keys, probably from about Marathon South (and West). The lowest ever recorded at Key West is 41deg.F. Every part of mainland Florida has seen sub-freezing temps, though in some favored microclimates it may happen only a few times a century.

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:rolleyes: No part of USA is anywhere near the tropics :unsure:
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Its not even tropical enough here to grow a breadfruit :hmm:

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Its not even tropical enough here to grow a breadfruit :hmm:

Breadfruit does grow and fruit in Key West, I've seen them.

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Hawaii definitely has breadfruit :P

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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

Breadfruit grows and fruits in parts of the Canaries Islands, which are well outside the tropics. Rather than use plants, which tend to be somewhat liberal

in their requirements, it's best to just use a weather station. LOL.

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[duplicate deleted]

Edited by siafu
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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

Hawaii is firmly in the tropics, record low temperatures are above 10*C/50*F and the the southern half of the Big Island is at 19*N.

Here's a breadfruit tree at the National Tropical Botanic Garden in Hawaii: National Tropical Botanic Garden

breadfruit_tree.jpg

I was just debating with people on another forum who thought Cairns should be classified as having a subtropical climate...:blink:

:) Jonathan

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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

Breadfruit grows and fruits in parts of the Canaries Islands, which are well outside the tropics. Rather than use plants, which tend to be somewhat liberal

in their requirements, it's best to just use a weather station. LOL.

Really?! Do you have a picture? Could be the world's northernmost fruiting breadfruit lol

:) Jonathan

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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

Hawaii is firmly in the tropics, record low temperatures are above 10*C/50*F and the the southern half of the Big Island is at 19*N.

Here's a breadfruit tree at the National Tropical Botanic Garden in Hawaii: National Tropical Botanic Garden

breadfruit_tree.jpg

I was just debating with people on another forum who thought Cairns should be classified as having a subtropical climate...:blink:

:) Jonathan

Cairns subtropical????? Then I live at the south pole.

Tyrone

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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

Breadfruit grows and fruits in parts of the Canaries Islands, which are well outside the tropics. Rather than use plants, which tend to be somewhat liberal

in their requirements, it's best to just use a weather station. LOL.

Really?! Do you have a picture? Could be the world's northernmost fruiting breadfruit lol

:) Jonathan

Better than a picture, there's a whole thread of discussion here on Palmtalk on the subject...

Carlo Morici provides the pictures and proof...

Palmtalk thread on breadfruit...

If the link does not work, try the search box with "Canary breadfruit". It's the second match.

Here's one of the pictures posted by Carlo.

P1050364_.jpg

Edited by siafu
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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

I don't know anything about a breadfruit, but IMO, if you can grow a lipstick, then you are in the tropics. Cyrtostachys are marginal in Miami. I have seen a local elegans(recently too) that's nearly 30 feet, but a renda can't make it, without serious protection. Lipsticks grow in the keys. So does Pritchardia pacifica, but we can grow those in Cutler Bay :)

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Only 25k towards the coast , there used to be massive breadfruits ,, that had xclnt crops . It is sprouting from the roots again after Yasi broke trunk . BUT , there may be bearing ones in certain tropical micro-climates in Key West & Hawaii , they are still not situated in the tropics . It is only 1 degree away from the imaginary line :rolleyes:

I am 18 degress south of the Equator .. Mangosteens , Durians , many other exotic tropical fruits grow well.. its just real borderline with breadfruit ..:angry:

I don't know anything about a breadfruit, but IMO, if you can grow a lipstick, then you are in the tropics. Cyrtostachys are marginal in Miami. I have seen a local elegans(recently too) that's nearly 30 feet, but a renda can't make it, without serious protection. Lipsticks grow in the keys. So does Pritchardia pacifica, but we can grow those in Cutler Bay :)

I heard lipsticks suffered damage even in Key West after the winter of 2010...I think a true tropical location should never get cold enough to damage lipsticks.

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Better than a picture, there's a whole thread of discussion here on Palmtalk on the subject...

Carlo Morici provides the pictures and proof...

Palmtalk thread on breadfruit...

If the link does not work, try the search box with "Canary breadfruit". It's the second match.

Here's one of the pictures posted by Carlo.

P1050364_.jpg

That's amazing! Never imagined the Canaries were that warm...

Edited by Xenon
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So where do you draw the line? Never gets below 50*F?

Never below 40*F? Never down to 32*? Where a C. Renda can grow unprotected? & undamaged? It's all subjective & there are many definitions of 'tropical'. My preferred definition is where it never freezes and the average temp in the coldest month is =>64*F (a modified Koeppen).

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Edited by displaced_floridian
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So where do you draw the line? Never gets below 50*F?

Never below 40*F? Never down to 32*? Where a C. Renda can grow unprotected? & undamaged? It's all subjective & there are many definitions of 'tropical'. My preferred definition is where it never freezes and the average temp in the coldest month is =>64*F (a modified Koeppen).

That definition basically places me in the tropics. It seriously doesn't feel tropical here until maybe Dec to March. The rest of the year lets it down.

I've seen lipsticks get damaged at Mission Beach well inside the tropics. Back in 2007 in winter at Mission Beach where all the coconuts sway I felt like I was back in Perth in winter. We even had the heater going flat out in the tropical cabin we hired as the night temp went down to 7C. Felt kind of ripped off actually going for a tropical get away that was just as cold as way down south. But the climate between Mission Beach in the tropics and my area in the west is totally incomparable, and the native rainforest confirms that in Mission Beach.

Really there are many tropical climates. C renda which comes from equatorial tropical climates may get damaged within the outer tropics in an exceptionally cold year. Where it comes from, never, even in a cold year drops below 18C.

Best regards

Tyrone

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So where do you draw the line? Never gets below 50*F?

Never below 40*F? Never down to 32*? Where a C. Renda can grow unprotected? & undamaged? It's all subjective & there are many definitions of 'tropical'. My preferred definition is where it never freezes and the average temp in the coldest month is =>64*F (a modified Koeppen).

That definition basically places me in the tropics. It seriously doesn't feel tropical here until maybe Dec to March. The rest of the year lets it down.

I've seen lipsticks get damaged at Mission Beach well inside the tropics. Back in 2007 in winter at Mission Beach where all the coconuts sway I felt like I was back in Perth in winter. We even had the heater going flat out in the tropical cabin we hired as the night temp went down to 7C. Felt kind of ripped off actually going for a tropical get away that was just as cold as way down south. But the climate between Mission Beach in the tropics and my area in the west is totally incomparable, and the native rainforest confirms that in Mission Beach.

Really there are many tropical climates. C renda which comes from equatorial tropical climates may get damaged within the outer tropics in an exceptionally cold year. Where it comes from, never, even in a cold year drops below 18C.

Best regards

Tyrone

I believe you are mistaking average temperature for the average maximum temperature.

As such, Perth's average temperature for the coldest month is not higher than 64F / 17.7C. According to weatherbase.com your coldest month is July with an average temperature of about 12C / 55F.

Hardly tropical as you state.

However, Tenerife in the Canary Islands would qualify, whereas Funchal in Madeira Island would not. Hamilton, Bermuda would fall short by just 1F in February.

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Interesting discussion. First, a major function of the National Tropical Botantic Garden is the Breadfruit Project. It's mission is to provide a sustainable source of food for the large portion of the world's population within the tropics that suffers from hunger. That theory seems tested by Aussieroids.

The only Garden that is a part of the National Tropical Botantic Garden is Kampong located next to Fairchild in Miami.No Breadfruit there as far as I know but Palmarum took pictures of a Dr.'s Garden several months after the Jan.2010 cold that included a 30 foot husky C. renda that showed no damage whatsoever.

While the low in Key West Airport was 41F., the low at the utility station was 46F. At the same time, unverified reports of temperatures of upper 20's were alleged in Key West.

In Palm Beach, our coldest average month is Jan., which gives us a Tropical Savannah designation at 26.7N. according to Koeppen. Our coldest temperature at the Airport is 28F. No Breadfruit but I have seen a 50 foot Areca cat.

Bottom-line Tropical is 23N. and 23S. Nothwithstanding places in the Tropics with temperatures below freezing and even snow at sea level, it is the only thing that makes sense or non-sense.

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Two questions have gotten mixed up here.

The first question is - is Miami located in the Tropics? The answer is No. And that's based on the latitude.

The second question is - is the climate in Miami tropical? Well this depends on the definition of tropical. There are system and those systems have formulas. Then exact climate figures are fed into those formulas. So one can come up with their own system, but once they do it becomes exact science and is not really subject to interpretation.

So is the climate in Miami tropical? Based on the Koeppen system, the answer is Yes. Based on the Trewartha system, the answer is Yes. Based on the Holdridge system the answer is Yes. So unless there is a system out ther that allows drawing of climate zones based on a success of cultivating a particular plant species, I think we can conclude this answer to be a definite Yes!

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No Miami is not tropical.

Records of SNOW and FREEZES, not only one time but many (for freezes) in South Florida.

Sub-tropícal, yes. Tropical - NO !

Compare the climate and records of San Juan, Acapulco, Aruba, Honolulu, Recife, Singapur.......with Miami.

In these citys, * ALL THE TIME *, it is warm or hot. Not only in some days in the winter.

It is not like this in Miami or Florida Keys. You cant go to the beach there every day in the winter, and know it is to be good day for this.

To me, to not worry about cool or cold in the winter is what is tropical.

Do people in South Florida remember of the last 2 winters ?

Can people say the winters of 2010 and 2011 in Miami are tropical ?

DEAD cocos nucifera, cyrtostachys renda, other palms and plants ?

These dead plants is the answer --> Sub-tropical.

Edited by Cristóbal
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I don't believe climatologists take into account what plants grow where when they came up with climate designations. Remember that climate and weather are not the same. A climate is a long term average of weather and temperatures. These can fluctuate greatly over the short term, but over the long term they form trends. Alex has it right. Miami does not lie within the tropics, however it does have a tropical climate. Mountaintops in South America or Africa on the equator fall squarely within the tropics, but above certain elevations they are clearly not tropical. So while Miami may occassionally have non-tropical weather, over the long term it definitely has a tropical climate. Hawaii, on the other hand, largely has a tropical climate and it falls within the tropics.

Jason

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No Miami is not tropical.

Records of SNOW and FREEZES, not only one time but many (for freezes) in South Florida.

Sub-tropícal, yes. Tropical - NO !

Compare the climate and records of San Juan, Acapulco, Aruba, Honolulu, Recife, Singapur.......with Miami.

In these citys, * ALL THE TIME *, it is warm or hot. Not only in some days in the winter.

It is not like this in Miami or Florida Keys. You cant go to the beach there every day in the winter, and know it is to be good day for this.

To me, to not worry about cool or cold in the winter is what is tropical.

Do people in South Florida remember of the last 2 winters ?

Can people say the winters of 2010 and 2011 in Miami are tropical ?

DEAD cocos nucifera, cyrtostachys renda, other palms and plants ?

These dead plants is the answer --> Sub-tropical.

I agree completely. I have a friend in Miami who vacations all over the world - Thailand, Puerto Vallarta, Honolulu, San Juan, Mazatlan- and he has always told me we are the SUBtropics, Rick, NOT the tropics. The sun is more intense in the tropics and considerably more overhead most of the day and the tropical vegetation is happier. He initially inspired me to investigate this. I used to think Miami was tropical, but no longer do.

He advised me to travel to the tropics to see what it is like.

Edited by Rick Santos
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No Miami is not tropical.

Records of SNOW and FREEZES, not only one time but many (for freezes) in South Florida.

Sub-tropícal, yes. Tropical - NO !

Compare the climate and records of San Juan, Acapulco, Aruba, Honolulu, Recife, Singapur.......with Miami.

In these citys, * ALL THE TIME *, it is warm or hot. Not only in some days in the winter.

It is not like this in Miami or Florida Keys. You cant go to the beach there every day in the winter, and know it is to be good day for this.

To me, to not worry about cool or cold in the winter is what is tropical.

Do people in South Florida remember of the last 2 winters ?

Can people say the winters of 2010 and 2011 in Miami are tropical ?

DEAD cocos nucifera, cyrtostachys renda, other palms and plants ?

These dead plants is the answer --> Sub-tropical.

I agree completely. I have a friend in Miami who vacations all over the world - Thailand, Puerto Vallarta, Honolulu, San Juan, Mazatlan- and he has always told me we are the SUBtropics, Rick, NOT the tropics. The sun is more intense in the tropics and considerably more overhead most of the day and the tropical vegetation is happier. He initially inspired me to investigate this. I used to think Miami was tropical, but no longer do.

He advised me to travel to the tropics to see what it is like.

Well then there should be a third question in the mix - Does Miami feel tropical? Maybe not!

The definitions are scientific and are not based on how we feel about them. Based on Koeppen and Trewartha if your coldest month's average temperature is above 18C (approx 64F) you are tropical. I'm sure they've taken into account that with the average temperature of 65F you would have frequent trips into the forties and sometimes below, and they still consider places like that - the tropics.

Weather forecast say 95 degrees, but feels like 102. But no matter what it feels like it's 95 that goes into the books. We may feel things in different ways. Some parts of San Diego, CA didn't feel like a desert to me, but they in fact are.

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As a person who has lived in the low land humid equatorial tropics for quite a while I would say that tropical is strictly a matter of latitude in reality. There are so many variations in what is tropical that it is very difficult to generalize. About 90 percent of Brazil lies in the tropics. And, there are many different tropics in this one country. Personally I would say that if you live north or south of the tropics lines on the globe, you are not in the tropics. Now the climate where one lives could indeed be very similar if not almost the same as one found within the tropics. I have spent quite a few years in South Florida and would say that for the most part it does not look or feel a lot different from here in Manaus. Except that in the hot season the nights here are cooler than S. Florida. And, in the cool season S. Fla has much drier air and frequently much cooler nights. The nights here are always pretty miuch the same - from 72 to 75 F. And, a freeze is impossible, unless a nuclear or volcanic winter happens. And, the sun is always pretty much overhead and the shadows are always short here on the equator. And, when the sun is shining it always bakes ones brains.

dk

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So where do you draw the line? Never gets below 50*F?

Never below 40*F? Never down to 32*? Where a C. Renda can grow unprotected? & undamaged? It's all subjective & there are many definitions of 'tropical'. My preferred definition is where it never freezes and the average temp in the coldest month is =>64*F (a modified Koeppen).

That definition basically places me in the tropics. It seriously doesn't feel tropical here until maybe Dec to March. The rest of the year lets it down.

I've seen lipsticks get damaged at Mission Beach well inside the tropics. Back in 2007 in winter at Mission Beach where all the coconuts sway I felt like I was back in Perth in winter. We even had the heater going flat out in the tropical cabin we hired as the night temp went down to 7C. Felt kind of ripped off actually going for a tropical get away that was just as cold as way down south. But the climate between Mission Beach in the tropics and my area in the west is totally incomparable, and the native rainforest confirms that in Mission Beach.

Really there are many tropical climates. C renda which comes from equatorial tropical climates may get damaged within the outer tropics in an exceptionally cold year. Where it comes from, never, even in a cold year drops below 18C.

Best regards

Tyrone

I believe you are mistaking average temperature for the average maximum temperature.

As such, Perth's average temperature for the coldest month is not higher than 64F / 17.7C. According to weatherbase.com your coldest month is July with an average temperature of about 12C / 55F.

Hardly tropical as you state.

However, Tenerife in the Canary Islands would qualify, whereas Funchal in Madeira Island would not. Hamilton, Bermuda would fall short by just 1F in February.

That makes more sense then, and I totally agree with that definition then. Perths winter average temp is 13C for July actually and this year it was closer to 15C. Still not tropical, but I want it as high as possible. According to Koeppen we are subtropical.

Tyrone

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As a person who has lived in the low land humid equatorial tropics for quite a while I would say that tropical is strictly a matter of latitude in reality. There are so many variations in what is tropical that it is very difficult to generalize. About 90 percent of Brazil lies in the tropics. And, there are many different tropics in this one country. Personally I would say that if you live north or south of the tropics lines on the globe, you are not in the tropics. Now the climate where one lives could indeed be very similar if not almost the same as one found within the tropics. I have spent quite a few years in South Florida and would say that for the most part it does not look or feel a lot different from here in Manaus. Except that in the hot season the nights here are cooler than S. Florida. And, in the cool season S. Fla has much drier air and frequently much cooler nights. The nights here are always pretty miuch the same - from 72 to 75 F. And, a freeze is impossible, unless a nuclear or volcanic winter happens. And, the sun is always pretty much overhead and the shadows are always short here on the equator. And, when the sun is shining it always bakes ones brains.

dk

You can't beat the real thing hey Don. It's a bit like you can only get real torque from a car engine with big cubic inches. :D

Tyrone

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I cant believe we are arguing about this again.... Sigh.... Unfortunately, outside of the tropical zone, it is not tropical. Tropical places are all different...yes, but it is more of a variations of different geology of land... And it doesnt mean that you can include subtropical climate into tropical.

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Tropical climate is not the same as the tropical location. Tropical climate is not bound geographically by the tropical zone.

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Who cares?

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I thought we were talking about location? As there are talks about latitude and longitude? We are in the tropics and I can grow C.renda and breadfruit and we are inside the tropical zone.

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Tropical climate is not the same as the tropical location. Tropical climate is not bound geographically by the tropical zone.

I guess you can take as many sides on this subject as one wants, Still to me tropical is within the latitude lines on the globe which define tropical, not what the average temperatures are. I guess it is similar to where I was raised in Montana. You can go up a mountain and in essence find an artic climate, with arctic like vegetationm, etc. But, you are still not in an arctic zone, as you are at 45 degrees N or so. Transition zones many times have nothing to do with latitude and are more influenced by ocean currents, altitude, location, etc. You could just as easily call the subtropics the subtemperate, as they are an area of transition between the two largeer climate zones. Personally I consider Quito, Ecuador to be just as tropical as where I am. Although the clmates have nothing to do one with another except for the fact that the sun is always directly overhead.

dk

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Tropical climate is not the same as the tropical location. Tropical climate is not bound geographically by the tropical zone.

I guess you can take as many sides on this subject as one wants, Still to me tropical is within the latitude lines on the globe which define tropical, not what the average temperatures are. I guess it is similar to where I was raised in Montana. You can go up a mountain and in essence find an artic climate, with arctic like vegetationm, etc. But, you are still not in an arctic zone, as you are at 45 degrees N or so. Transition zones many times have nothing to do with latitude and are more influenced by ocean currents, altitude, location, etc. You could just as easily call the subtropics the subtemperate, as they are an area of transition between the two largeer climate zones. Personally I consider Quito, Ecuador to be just as tropical as where I am. Although the clmates have nothing to do one with another except for the fact that the sun is always directly overhead.

dk

Don, you're correct to bring up the Arctic. The Polar location vs. Polar climate situation is identical. Them most common classification systems define Polar (Arctic or Antarctic) climate as the climate where the average temperature of the warmest month is below 10C.

The best example is Greenland. All of it has Arctic climate but about a quarter of it is outside of the Arctic Circle. Actually parts of Tierra del Fuego have Antarctic climate even though they are not located south of the Antarctic Circle. Elevate regions of Montana actually qualify as Alpine climate.

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Tropical climate is not the same as the tropical location. Tropical climate is not bound geographically by the tropical zone.

I guess you can take as many sides on this subject as one wants, Still to me tropical is within the latitude lines on the globe which define tropical, not what the average temperatures are. I guess it is similar to where I was raised in Montana. You can go up a mountain and in essence find an artic climate, with arctic like vegetationm, etc. But, you are still not in an arctic zone, as you are at 45 degrees N or so. Transition zones many times have nothing to do with latitude and are more influenced by ocean currents, altitude, location, etc. You could just as easily call the subtropics the subtemperate, as they are an area of transition between the two largeer climate zones. Personally I consider Quito, Ecuador to be just as tropical as where I am. Although the clmates have nothing to do one with another except for the fact that the sun is always directly overhead.

dk

I agree 100 % with Don.

Edited by Rick Santos
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I cant believe we are arguing about this again.... Sigh.... Unfortunately, outside of the tropical zone, it is not tropical. Tropical places are all different...yes, but it is more of a variations of different geology of land... And it doesnt mean that you can include subtropical climate into tropical.

I agree 100 % also.

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