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Do we qualify as subtropical yet?


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#1 Laisla87

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:08 PM

Hi,

Just thought I'd post our weather forecast for next week, mid winter:

Thursday 30 June
Summary
Min 13
Max 18
Shower or two.

Sydney area

Cloudy. Isolated showers. Light winds.

Friday 1 July
Summary
Min 12
Max 18
Cloudy.

Sydney area

Partly cloudy. Patchy fog in the west early in the morning. Light winds.
Saturday 2 July
Summary
Min 10
Max 18
Mostly sunny.

Sydney area
Patchy morning fog. Mostly sunny day. Light winds.

Sunday 3 July

Summary
Min 9
Max 19
Partly cloudy.

Sydney area
Partly cloudy. Winds northwesterly and light.

Monday 4 July

Summary
Min 10
Max 20
Partly cloudy.

Sydney area
Partly cloudy. Winds west to northwesterly averaging up to 30 km/h.

Tuesday 5 July

Summary
Min 10
Max 18
Mostly sunny.

Sydney area

Mostly sunny. Winds westerly averaging up to 35 km/h tending west to southwesterly up to 40 km/h during the afternoon.


Far from being a one off, this has been the weather for most of June. Yesterday only hit 16 and that felt cold, but generally it has got to at least 18-19 daily. I've been monitoring our temperatures and our minimums are 5-6 degrees higher than many coastal cities on the central to mid-north NSW coast - the very same places with the coveted 'sub-tropical' climate classification. I realise the classification also concerns rainfall patterns and the like, but these temps have to lean more towards subtropical than anything else.

I also wonder to what extent the size of Sydney limits its climatic classification. If you take into account the winter temperatures of the mid to outer northern, western and southern suburbs, then the climate is more continental and temperate. But here on the coast we rarely see any of the extremes those places do which preclude them from being classed as 'subtropical'. So perhaps meteorologists' need to classify the climate of the city as a whole has caused them to err on the side of caution and dub it 'warm temperate' even when in some locales, that is not entirely accurate???
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#2 Miccles

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:25 PM

Hi,

Sounds like you're having a mild winter, and good on you !
But you might need to string quite a few together to boost your claim. Take an average over the last 20 years or so to get a bigger picture. For example, our summer in Melbourne last year was wet and humid- I wish they were all like that. But alas, it was an exception, not the norm.

Also, as you mention, the climate within Sydney itself varies hugely - the broadly defined "west" gets colder at night, but warmer during the day. Take a look at "weatherzone" for historical data concerning your suburb or area.

Regards
Michael.
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Just north of Cairns, Australia....16 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 18C to 34C.

Spending a lot of time in Jakarta, Indonesia... 6 Deg S.
Tropical climate: from 25C to 34C.

#3 Tropicgardener

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:02 PM

If you go by the U.S. standards Sydney would already be considered to be subtropical (San Diego and Los Angeles by our standards would be considered to be warm temperate)..........the accepted true subtropics occur north from Coffs Harbour. Climates are far more complex than maximum and minimum temperatures. As for humidity levels I remember my time living down there where the locals would be whinging about how humid it was and I would laugh at them. Sure it gets humid there but it is not consistent........

Maybe the subtropics should be defined as a place where Coconut Palms can grow without protection :hmm:
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Andrew,
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Tropical Queensland


#4 Tyrone

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:16 PM

Actually "sub-tropical" has nothing to do with rainfall. The Koeppen system has 2 grades of "sub-tropical", dry and moist referring to the summer rainfall pattern. The "Mediteranean" climate zone has dry summers but can also encompass the dry subtropics zone. (However not all Mediteranean climates are dry subtropical) Sydney looking at long range stats just falls out of the "subtropical" classification due to the coldest winter monthly average max's being less than 18C. But I'm sure there are some parts of Sydney which would fall into the subtropical classification, and there'd be even more areas of Sydney that could be considered subtropical maybe 7 or 8 years out of ten in reality. These would likely be coastal and along the harbour. The BG area would probably fit that description.

It's the same here in Perth with some suburbs technically falling outside the dry subtropical zone and once you go up into the hills it's clearly warm temperate due to altitude. Just to the south of Perth also is warm temperate.

At the end of the day though, these are just arbitrary cut off points that humans have used to name and classify things. The plants and palms have no concept of these things so I say, just grow what you can grow. However it is a handy tool to compare climates. What Sydney has going for it especially in the eastern suburbs is consistent yearly rainfall and humidity. I'd give up a dry subtropical claim for consistent rain and humidity any day.

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#5 Tropicgardener

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:30 PM

I will probably get stepped on here but the 'Subtropical Zone' is not really a zone at all........by saying that as I am just south of the Tropic of Capricorn I am in the 'Temperate Zone' but if I travel 80km (50 miles north) I am in the 'Tropic Zone'.

Obviously though the term 'Subtropical' is a neccessary term to describe areas that are in that fringe area and display characteristics for much of the year closer to the Tropic (torrid) zone.
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Andrew,
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Tropical Queensland


#6 Laisla87

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 03:12 AM

Actually "sub-tropical" has nothing to do with rainfall. The Koeppen system has 2 grades of "sub-tropical", dry and moist referring to the summer rainfall pattern. The "Mediteranean" climate zone has dry summers but can also encompass the dry subtropics zone. (However not all Mediteranean climates are dry subtropical) Sydney looking at long range stats just falls out of the "subtropical" classification due to the coldest winter monthly average max's being less than 18C. But I'm sure there are some parts of Sydney which would fall into the subtropical classification, and there'd be even more areas of Sydney that could be considered subtropical maybe 7 or 8 years out of ten in reality. These would likely be coastal and along the harbour. The BG area would probably fit that description.

It's the same here in Perth with some suburbs technically falling outside the dry subtropical zone and once you go up into the hills it's clearly warm temperate due to altitude. Just to the south of Perth also is warm temperate.

At the end of the day though, these are just arbitrary cut off points that humans have used to name and classify things. The plants and palms have no concept of these things so I say, just grow what you can grow. However it is a handy tool to compare climates. What Sydney has going for it especially in the eastern suburbs is consistent yearly rainfall and humidity. I'd give up a dry subtropical claim for consistent rain and humidity any day.

Best regards

Tyrone


I agree, Tyrone. I just find it hard how towns on the NSW central coast, a couple of hours away classify as subtropical when their winter weather is characterized by lower lows and maximums higher by 1 degree than here in Sydney. As described by yourself, we just miss out on the humid subtropical classification due to the lowest maximums of 16-17 in mid winter and not 18. Here in the inner suburbs our weather is always humid and lows in winter rarely hit 6, more often around 10.
Being right on the fringe, you can see the diversity of microclimates reflected in the local plants. In my suburb, I can see climbers such as Scindapsus and Syngonium colonizing palm trunks, with fish bone ferns sprouting in the canopy. In my backyard as we speak I have wisteria suckers sprouting which are green and vigorous, oblivious to the 'cold'. Yet 30 mins drive away I see frost had already defoliated banana plants and turned grass brown by mid-May this year. There are streets where deciduous trees have not lost any leaves yet, where in other places here they were all colourful throughout Autumn. It is a pain especially when visiting nurseries, as they will try and stock plants which grow throughout Sydney, rather than addressing climatic variances. What this means is, of course, that the potentially vast range of tropical plants that could grow here is yet to be realised.
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#7 Daryl

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 03:36 AM

Adam, check out the Tropical Garden Society of Sydney...that is the ex IPS Sydney chapter. They have a lot of members who have been growing all kinds of palms and tropicals for decades...a great source of information for you.

Website

I'll also add my bit and say that the climate isn't just determined by the winter temperatures. You have to consider the rest of the year as well. The mid-north coast and north coast are noticeable warmer and more humid in the summer months, as well as warming earlier and cooling later. It all adds up.

regards,
Daryl
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Gold Coast Hinterland, Queensland 28S. Mild Humid Subtropical climate. Rainfall - not consistent enough!

 

 


#8 Tyrone

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 06:23 AM

Andrew I'd never consider Tannum Sands "temperate" unless you are considering climate in a largely broad way, ie you're either in the tropics (between 23.5S to 23.5N), or you're not, sort of thinking.

Here's the Koeppen map of Australia.

http://reg.bom.gov.a...r/kpn_all.shtml

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#9 Tropicgardener

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:11 PM

Andrew I'd never consider Tannum Sands "temperate" unless you are considering climate in a largely broad way, ie you're either in the tropics (between 23.5S to 23.5N), or you're not, sort of thinking.

Here's the Koeppen map of Australia.

http://reg.bom.gov.a...r/kpn_all.shtml

Best regards

Tyrone


Tyrone, Tannum Sands as you say certainly isn't temperate but in Rockhampton they have the 'Tropic of Capricorn' spire where 2 low brick walls are set up on either side of the spire. On the southern wall it has displayed 'Temperate Zone' and on the northern wall it has 'Tropic Zone'.......giving no indication of the 'fringe' subtropic zone.............Incidently the 'Tropic of Capricorn' actually is south of Rockhampton but they 'moved' it north to a nice palm filled park in Rocky :rolleyes:

Edited by Tropicgardener, 01 July 2011 - 10:12 PM.

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Andrew,
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Tropical Queensland


#10 Tyrone

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:15 AM


Andrew I'd never consider Tannum Sands "temperate" unless you are considering climate in a largely broad way, ie you're either in the tropics (between 23.5S to 23.5N), or you're not, sort of thinking.

Here's the Koeppen map of Australia.

http://reg.bom.gov.a...r/kpn_all.shtml

Best regards

Tyrone


Tyrone, Tannum Sands as you say certainly isn't temperate but in Rockhampton they have the 'Tropic of Capricorn' spire where 2 low brick walls are set up on either side of the spire. On the southern wall it has displayed 'Temperate Zone' and on the northern wall it has 'Tropic Zone'.......giving no indication of the 'fringe' subtropic zone.............Incidently the 'Tropic of Capricorn' actually is south of Rockhampton but they 'moved' it north to a nice palm filled park in Rocky :rolleyes:


Don't you just love councils. :D

Is there a climatic difference on either side of the wall??

To me the southern subtropics is a coastal strip around 900-1000km south of the Tropic of Capricorn ands maybe even north of the Tropic of Capricorn.

Looking at the Koeppen map, even places technically within the tropics, ie north of 23.5S can have a subtropical climate. It just depends what ruler you use to measure things.

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#11 Takil-Explorer

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:40 PM

Well I guess Sydny is pretty subtropical.

Alexander
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#12 Bobster

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 06:27 PM

It's the same here in Perth with some suburbs technically falling outside the dry subtropical zone and once you go up into the hills it's clearly warm temperate due to altitude. Just to the south of Perth also is warm temperate.


Hi Tyrone!
Having lived in Perth for 26 years, I'm CERTAIN that it would be possible to grow healthy, vigorous coconut palms in a north-facing spot, preferably backed by a wall… on Rottnest Island. I've spent a long time monitoring comparative temperatures and Rotto's temps are similar to those around Carnarvon, but milder in summer. The sandy soil should prevent root-rot in the wet winter months and, if watered regularly in summer, and fertilised, they should thrive.

Has anyone tried? It would be an interesting experiment.
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#13 Tyrone

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 09:24 PM


It's the same here in Perth with some suburbs technically falling outside the dry subtropical zone and once you go up into the hills it's clearly warm temperate due to altitude. Just to the south of Perth also is warm temperate.


Hi Tyrone!
Having lived in Perth for 26 years, I'm CERTAIN that it would be possible to grow healthy, vigorous coconut palms in a north-facing spot, preferably backed by a wall… on Rottnest Island. I've spent a long time monitoring comparative temperatures and Rotto's temps are similar to those around Carnarvon, but milder in summer. The sandy soil should prevent root-rot in the wet winter months and, if watered regularly in summer, and fertilised, they should thrive.

Has anyone tried? It would be an interesting experiment.


Hi Bobster,

Glad to have another new poster here from Oz, and one that lived in Perth too. I can see that you're living in Paradise now. :D

About Rottnest, I've thought exactly the same as you for a while now. In winter it's minimums are never cold. I think 4C is the coldest it's ever been there since records began in the 1800's. Of course it sits smack bang in the middle of the Leeuwin current which allows coral to grow there. It can be a windy old place over on Rotto but like you say, a secluded little nook that's north facing with a brick wall or high limestone cliff behind it would provide a lot of protection for it. The sand and limestone and occasional seaweed would be ideal for a coconut. Also being an island, the summer nights are warmer than the mainland, and the days though cooler than the mainland are more humid. The salt spray would be ideal for the coconut too. The downside is the lack of much irrigation water on the island and the fact that no one is a permanent resident there. If I ever had opportunity to live there, I would definitely try a coconut, and a heap of other stuff. Maybe one day I might get a job doing some landscaping there. Would definitely try a coconut then. I wonder if they'd fruit. :D

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#14 Bobster

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 09:36 PM

Hi Tyrone,

[/quote] I wonder if they'd fruit. :D [/quote]

I expect that they would fruit about as well as they do here in Noosa. Cocos nucifera fruits prolifically on the beachfront and beside the Noosa River, although it doesn't set viable seed that will sprout. But the juice makes a refreshing drink. And some specimens here are magnificent. There's a great example growing on abandoned land beside one of our main roads, a long way from the beach. It never gets any human attention, the ground below it is thick with long grass, but it looks perfect. I'll send some photos.

The ideal spot on Rottnest might be near a leach drain that keeps the ground a bit moist. Maybe, on your next visit, you could ask the management of the Pub or a resort to set aside a suitable spot as an experiment. A grey-water diverter could be put to good use.

Let us all know if you decide to take up the challenge, Tyrone.

Regards,

Bob.
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#15 Tyrone

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 10:11 PM

Would love to try it Bob. Just got off the phone to a friend of mine down in Baldivis. He had a green coconut in a pot for about 3 years that he gave to a neighbour. His neighbour planted it out in his verge this summer and it's grown like crazy and is still deep green now in the middle of winter. It will be amazing if it goes through winter relatively unscathed because Baldivis can be a very cold area at times. Will see how it goes.

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#16 Bobster

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 10:21 PM

Would love to try it Bob. Just got off the phone to a friend of mine down in Baldivis. He had a green coconut in a pot for about 3 years that he gave to a neighbour. His neighbour planted it out in his verge this summer and it's grown like crazy and is still deep green now in the middle of winter. It will be amazing if it goes through winter relatively unscathed because Baldivis can be a very cold area at times. Will see how it goes.

Best regards

Tyrone


In Baldivis? Wow. I'm impressed! I'd be inclined to tent it, just in case of frost. After a few years, the crown will be above the frost zone and it should be less necessary to protect it. But I'm not optimistic about its future. :(

Bob.
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#17 Tropicgardener

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:42 PM

Speaking of planting Coconuts on islands.......just down the street near the beach is a park area with a man made lake and island in the middle. Someone planted a Norfolk Island Pine on it that gets decorated in Tinsel every year. I am planning on kayaking over to it and planting a few of the coconuts that I recently germinated.....will look totally awesome.

Bobster.......I think some persistance might be due when it comes to germinating Coconuts down your way.....I know someone in Hervey Bay who gets a few locally collected nuts to strike and have heard of a few Brisbane Coconuts striking.....I get a reasonably good strike here but I am quite a fair bit further north.
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Andrew,
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#18 Tyrone

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:05 AM


Would love to try it Bob. Just got off the phone to a friend of mine down in Baldivis. He had a green coconut in a pot for about 3 years that he gave to a neighbour. His neighbour planted it out in his verge this summer and it's grown like crazy and is still deep green now in the middle of winter. It will be amazing if it goes through winter relatively unscathed because Baldivis can be a very cold area at times. Will see how it goes.

Best regards

Tyrone


In Baldivis? Wow. I'm impressed! I'd be inclined to tent it, just in case of frost. After a few years, the crown will be above the frost zone and it should be less necessary to protect it. But I'm not optimistic about its future. :(

Bob.


No, I'm not optimistic either. But it's a green variety, and has been grown in Baldivis in a pot without much protection for 3 years previous. Being out on the verge is exposed though. I hope it proves us wrong.

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#19 Daryl

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:22 AM

Many of the coconuts down here on the Gold Coast produce viable seed, so I can't see any reason why they wouldn't do it further north.

Welcome to Palmtalk Bobster!


Daryl
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Gold Coast Hinterland, Queensland 28S. Mild Humid Subtropical climate. Rainfall - not consistent enough!

 

 


#20 Bobster

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:16 PM

Many of the coconuts down here on the Gold Coast produce viable seed, so I can't see any reason why they wouldn't do it further north.

Welcome to Palmtalk Bobster!
Daryl


Thanks for the welcome, Daryl. I was just relying on local hearsay when I said that the coconuts produced in Noosa are not viable. You say they germinate on the Gold Coast? That contradicts Mike Foale's book "Coconut Odyssey" which suggests that, as I recall, viable seed won't be produced in such a southerly location. I live and learn.

Regards,

Bob.
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#21 Tyrone

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:20 PM

I think the line between a viable seed and a non viable seed is a very very small one. If the plant has gone to all the trouble to form up a seed like a coconut, with just a little more work it can build a working embryo in there. In those marginal areas it could be simply a case of just a bit more light or sun, or a slightly warmer microclimate in the garden to get the seed to be viable.

I hope I can test my theory out one day. :)

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#22 Bobster

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 05:59 AM

…some specimens here are magnificent. There's a great example growing on abandoned land beside one of our main roads, a long way from the beach. It never gets any human attention, the ground below it is thick with long grass, but it looks perfect. I'll send some photos.


And here it is. This palm is about 8 km from the coast, beside a busy main road, and never receives any irrigation or fertiliser. She's got a lovely bunch of coconuts, as you can see if you click on it and zoom in.

IMG_0382.jpg

The local area contains some people of influence whom I call the "Native Plant Taliban". At the slightest excuse, this beautiful specimen could become a victim of their dogma. The Council's chainsaws have felled some other superb specimens in the Noosa area. If it happens to this one, fair dinkum, I'll cry.

Bob.

Edited by Bobster, 17 July 2011 - 06:00 AM.

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#23 Bobster

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:07 AM

Come to think of it, I've had an inspiration! I'll take my brush-cutter and clean up around her. Then, I'll put a sign beside her saying that I've adopted her, along with my name and phone number.

At least, as a result, any human threatening her might think twice before doing any damage.

Bob.
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#24 Tyrone

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:53 PM

That's a beauty. Why would someone destroy such a perfect beautiful plant. Anyway in my mind the coconut is a native, maybe not to Noosa, but somewhere in Oz. Native Plant Nazi's.Posted Image

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#25 Tropicgardener

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:58 AM

That's a beauty. Why would someone destroy such a perfect beautiful plant. Anyway in my mind the coconut is a native, maybe not to Noosa, but somewhere in Oz. Native Plant Nazi's.Posted Image

Best regards

Tyrone

They certainly are native to Queensland.......the aboriginals of the Lockhart River area have had a long association with the coconut.....long before white man was ever on the scene.....The extreme dwarf Moa Island Coconut from the Torres Strait Islands is another example, it is used in certain religious ceremonies there.

I think it was the last issue of SubTropical Gardening magazine made mention of Coconuts as an Australian native plant. I contacted the editor and congratulated him on being brave enough to publish the fact!
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#26 Tyrone

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:29 PM


That's a beauty. Why would someone destroy such a perfect beautiful plant. Anyway in my mind the coconut is a native, maybe not to Noosa, but somewhere in Oz. Native Plant Nazi's.Posted Image

Best regards

Tyrone

They certainly are native to Queensland.......the aboriginals of the Lockhart River area have had a long association with the coconut.....long before white man was ever on the scene.....The extreme dwarf Moa Island Coconut from the Torres Strait Islands is another example, it is used in certain religious ceremonies there.

I think it was the last issue of SubTropical Gardening magazine made mention of Coconuts as an Australian native plant. I contacted the editor and congratulated him on being brave enough to publish the fact!


That's Paul Plant. Nice guy. I'm friends with him on Facebook.

Yes I totally agree with you that Cocos nucifera is a native for the reasons you've mentioned. Why would it float around the Pacific Islands and not end up on Cape York somewhere. It's crazy to think it wouldn't happen. The native brigade which take up the "kill the coconut" flag do it for really unfounded reasons too. When I was at Green Island, there were some plaques around the island talking about the vegetation and there was one that said that the Coconut was an invader and a possible threat to the rainforests and the dilemma was whether it should be removed from the beaches or not. What nonsense. No coconut will migrate from the beach into a dark rainforest unless someone has gone into the forest already and removed the canopy. Coconuts are like solar panels. They need the sun and will even lean out over the ocean away from the coast to get more if the beach is crowded. Even in the Daintree where people are trying to grow some coconuts in shady rainforest areas where Licuala ramsayi thrive, the coconuts seem to struggle and don't look happy at all.

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#27 Bobster

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:48 PM

No coconut will migrate from the beach into a dark rainforest unless someone has gone into the forest already and removed the canopy.


The other factor to consider is that coconuts are spread by floating in water. That means they won't spread anywhere, in nature, unless the coastal dunes are inundated and the seeds are carried to some other amenable place. In the thick of a rainforest is not such a place.

Of course, they can be spread by humans. Which reminds me of the old joke that goes "How quickly does rabbit Calicivirus spread? At 60 kph in the city, 110 kph in the country." :winkie:

Bob.
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#28 Laisla87

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:41 AM

The native nazis really get on my nerves. When I worked in FNQ, they waged a war against the coconut - invader, evil tree they said. Yet even if it was such a burden to our native plants, there are invaders that are far worse and not being targeted with the same zeal. It seems the coconut is an easy target.

Ironic that the native taliban are intent on removing everything non-native when they themselves are not indigenous to Australia either.
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#29 ariscott

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:57 AM

Yeah.... Darwin is going through that 'plant native' movement too at the moment... Sorry, but this doesn't sit well with me!!! My native gets just as much water as the exotics and they don't grow as fast... go figure!!!

Regards, Ari :)
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Ari & Scott

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#30 Laisla87

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 03:42 AM

Yeah.... Darwin is going through that 'plant native' movement too at the moment... Sorry, but this doesn't sit well with me!!! My native gets just as much water as the exotics and they don't grow as fast... go figure!!!

Regards, Ari :)


Native plants in urban settings (i.e. as street trees) provide no more ecological value than an exotic tree. Everyday I see flocks of native birds nesting in CIDPs and Ficus Benjamina, while nearby gum trees are ignored.
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#31 Tyrone

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:36 AM

Yes, one of the arguments that the native militants use is that a native plant helps the ecology because it's a native plant to the area for example. But that sort of thinking is like putting a bandaid on an amputee patient, because knocking down all the native forests, filling in all the wetlands, piping all the runoff water into the rivers which picks up all the pollutants without any filtering by a wetland, all the things that happen when you put a city with 1-5 million inhabitants into a pristine habitat is what causes the ecological damage. There is virtually nothing to protect any more in the confines of suburbia. Some exotics are more able to grow in these modified human environments than natives are and provide more support to the wildlife that is left than the endemic species. I have more frogs in my garden than most, probably because all the little streams and swamps have been filled in, and my rainforest environment I've created gives them an ideal home. Not to mention the birds. I've even had owls live in my rainforest. I doubt that would happen in a "waterwise" native minimalist landscape which is being promoted now.

Best regards

Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#32 Bobster

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 05:51 AM

Native plants in urban settings (i.e. as street trees) provide no more ecological value than an exotic tree. Everyday I see flocks of native birds nesting in CIDPs and Ficus Benjamina, while nearby gum trees are ignored.
[/quote]

CIDPs ? :unsure:
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#33 Tyrone

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:15 AM

Canary Island Date Palms. CIDP.
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#34 Daryl

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:16 AM

Canary Island Date Palms
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Gold Coast Hinterland, Queensland 28S. Mild Humid Subtropical climate. Rainfall - not consistent enough!

 

 


#35 Tyrone

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:16 AM

Daryl, we replied exactly at the same time.
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#36 ariscott

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:27 PM

I have resident King Fisher living on my backyard.. little finches on my calliandra... and in the wet, I get a flock of Corellas coming to use my dam. Although, the rainbow lorikeets & sulphur-crested cockatoos do like the native sesbania. I think everything in moderation is the key.... a bit of this and a bit of that...
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Ari & Scott

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#37 Daryl

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:09 PM

Daryl, we replied exactly at the same time.


Ooh Spooky! :D
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Gold Coast Hinterland, Queensland 28S. Mild Humid Subtropical climate. Rainfall - not consistent enough!

 

 


#38 Ray Tampa

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 08:59 AM

Maybe the subtropics should be defined as a place where Coconut Palms can grow without protection


Successfully growing a tropical plant like Cocos nucifera outside without protection would make the climate virtually tropical not sub-tropical. I think citrus is a better gauge for the subtropics.
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#39 Tyrone

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 02:47 PM

This area used to be full of commercial orange groves before they built suburbia on them. There's even a suburb called Orange Grove. Citrus grow everywhere over here right down to the south coast.

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Tyrone
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Millbrook, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Winter 8C to 16C min/max, Summer 15C to 24C min/max. Approx 850mm rainfall with a winter peak. Driest month Feb with 25mm. 9km (5miles) from Southern Ocean. 6km (3.5miles) from Oyster Harbour. 13m asl. 1/3 clay, 2/3 peat soil on a flood plain.

 

It rains 6 months of the year and the other 6 months it continues dripping off the trees. 

The Tropical Look


#40 happ

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 06:34 PM

I don't think the viability of citrus is an accurate gauge for tropical status if one uses California as the example. Much of the state's citrus industry is in the San Joaquin Valley above 35N latitude and winter temps can be very non-tropical. Plus citrus does very well right down to the coast in southern California at 32N+ latitude. Just because frost and freezing temps are less likely than in Texas or the northern half of Florida doesn't in any way mean that California is tropical.
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