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BUTIA X PARAJUBAEA

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#121 ErikSJI

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 12:13 PM


Maybe you can tell me how long Pollen stays viable even frozen dried etc. The longer you wait the less viable it becomes this is what I was getting at. Timing is very important. It has nothing to do about what I think of other hybridisers.I think what other Hybridisers are doing is great.

When Mark and his Mentor who wishes to remain unknown started making hybrids in the late 90s they were noticing some of there palms were not Mule Palms and they set out to find a way to change some of the processes to insure 100% accuracy. After they sold a whole field of Mule Palms to a guy in Texas who still has some mighty big Mule Palms with over 12ft of trunk for sale they started from scratch. They ditched the garbage bag method as they found it did more harm then good, they got rid of the paint brushes, qtips and the syringes as they found it was to time consuming. They got rid of the oven, the rolling pin. Etc. As they found that this process was not needed. Ever since that day they have never had another Butia pop up in the bunch.

Marks Mentor met with Dr. Wilcox years ago to discuss the Butia X Cocos cross. I believe he even went to the same college as Dr. Wilcox. Rest assured as you say. The old man has pulled off the Butia X Cocos twice now. Most of these were given away to other growers as gifts the rest have been planted just this year.


Erik this forum is about sharing not selling. You are very good at constantly promoting your palms and doubltless sell many through this forum.
OK, if you want to do that then thats your business, but please keep the remarks about other hybridisers out of your posts, thats all, thanks

So what you are saying is you would prefer I did not share my information and share my experiences with pollinating with Mark Lynn? As well as other pollinators. I work with him hand and hand and he is aware of what I post. Just as Dick tells us of Patrics wonderful creations in this thread. Do you not write about your experiences with others? Sharing is exactly what I was doing.

Here is a heads up on garbage bag method it not only kills off the flowers you will experience more abortions as from the heat and humidity in the bag cooks it. Especially in the dead summer in central Florida and I would assume in Brazil as well. Even the clear plastic bags. This is experience and a history of trying it different ways from Mark Lynn. Try it without the garbage bag and I bet your get a better yield and less abortions. Maybe you should refrain from telling me what I can and can not post and contact me in private if you have a problem. So we do not step all over this thread.
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#122 Nigel

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 12:37 PM




I'm sure there are many mature Parajubaeas in S. Calif., but I was only talking about N. Calif. A half a dozen was only a guess, and I suppose there are some that are hidden away that I don't know about.

Dick


The second time around we used a different method and extracted a lot more pollen



Erik...

Do you mind sharing this other method...I have tried to collect pollen for Nigel but have had hopeless results..

Further...can anyone identify the gaget in the photos?...I found it at the tip and after deseizing found it to make a great coquito nut cracker...


kind regards...

That item right there my friend is awesome. If you ever want to sell it let me know as I am tired of using other items to crack open seeds.

Please message me and I will let you know how we ship pollen and how we have been receiving pollen.

However just because you can ship pollen the way we do does not mean that everyone can make this pollen work. Anyone can ship pollen but what do they do with it when they get it at the other end? Timing, weather, location all play a part in it.

We have a different way of pollinating that allows us to do what others can not with minimal amounts of pollen. We are not using paint brushes, syringes, machines. Etc etc.

The two of us are on track to do 25,000 mule palm seedlings this year with this process. As well as many other hybrids thanks to all the pollen donors out there. In 3 years we have tripled output. This process takes all the guess work out of any hybrids that are done. When it is pollinated that is exactly what it is. No questions. I know there other pollinators out there that say NOT. However I can attest to it and so can our growers for over 10 years.


Malc my friend asked a simple question about extracting pollen to send me, mentioning my name, and you respond with this crap.

What the hell is ''However just because you can ship pollen the way we do does not mean that everyone can make this pollen work. Anyone can ship pollen but what do they do with it when they get it at the other end? Timing, weather, location all play a part in it.''

You DIDNT answer his question, but you did insinuate he would be wasting his pollen. This and reference to 'other hybridisers'.
Its not nice, and was TOTALLY UNNECCESSARY.

As to sharing you dont share anything. Yes you put lots of pics on all forums to make sure everybody knows what you sell, but you dont tell us your 'superior techniques' you keep shouting about, now that would be sharing. Now please if somebody asks a question then please just answer it without the extras.

Edited by Nigel, 10 August 2011 - 12:55 PM.

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#123 ErikSJI

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 12:55 PM

Thank you again for response. Maybe you should have responded to the thread in question instead of here. Or even in private. Again. Timing, weather, packaging, storing all plays a part in it. In no way was I discrediting any pollinators. I was discrediting the viability of the pollen itself. As it passes through many temps on its journey over then being stored until it is ready. I am sure everyone has experienced using pollen and getting no results even on best conditions. I explained how we sifted it and vacuum sealed it for shipping. Maybe you did not catch that. If you have a question please ask and I will be happy to straighten it out with you.

Erik...
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#124 gyuseppe

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:00 PM

Here is an update on the progress of my Butia X Parajubaea. The first inflorescence that was pollenated with Jubaea has only held on to 6 fruit, but they are round plump and about an inch in diamater, and I think they are going to hold.

The second inflorescence was pollenated with its own pollen. Most of the flowers aborted within days, but it has held on to 7 fruit. They are still small, so they could also abort. The pollen appears to be almost sterile but there is some germ of life or they wouldn't have set any fruit.

My Bujubaea was pollenated with the Butia X Parajubaea and all the flowers aborted. There are 4 more spathes that have not opened yet. They will be pollenated with various pollens, including P. cocoides.

Dick

very few :( seeds!
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#125 Nigel

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:06 PM

In no way was I discrediting any pollinators. I was discrediting the viability of the pollen itself. Erik...


However just because you can ship pollen the way we do does not mean that everyone can make this pollen work


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#126 ErikSJI

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:17 PM


In no way was I discrediting any pollinators. I was discrediting the viability of the pollen itself. Erik...


However just because you can ship pollen the way we do does not mean that everyone can make this pollen work

Meaning exactly what it said. Again I will ask do you know the viability of pollen? Because I do not. I do know shipping it, storing it, being in different temps all make a difference and it losses viability. We have shipped and received shipments of pollen. We have had failures in pollen that has been shipped and stored and have had success as well. Everyone who has had pollen shipped to them that I have read about has experienced the same. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. However if you happen to have those trees you are crossing in your backyard. Fresh is always the best way but we can not have all the palms we want in our backyard. Hope that clears it up for you.
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#127 PalmGuyWC

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 04:22 PM

Here is a update on my Butia X Parajubaea. The palm seems to be sterile, but not totally. The first inflorescence was pollinated with Jubaea and it aborted all the flowers but 5. The 5 remaining fruit are plump but not ripe yet. The 2nd inflorescence was self pollinated and only one fruit remains. It's quite large and still growing. The 3rd inflorescence was pollinated with Para. cocoides. Only 2 small fruit held on. A 4th inflorescence is about to reach anthesis, and I don't know what Patrick will pollinate it with.

I'd say the palm is mostly sterile and it's not worth the time and effort to pollinate to get so few seeds. There are several new spathes pushing out and it appears it will flower year round. The palm has grown like a rocket this summer and the tips of the new fronds are about 20 feet high.

Dick
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#128 Alberto

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 07:00 PM

Here is a update on my Butia X Parajubaea. The palm seems to be sterile, but not totally. The first inflorescence was pollinated with Jubaea and it aborted all the flowers but 5. The 5 remaining fruit are plump but not ripe yet. The 2nd inflorescence was self pollinated and only one fruit remains. It's quite large and still growing. The 3rd inflorescence was pollinated with Para. cocoides. Only 2 small fruit held on. A 4th inflorescence is about to reach anthesis, and I don't know what Patrick will pollinate it with.

I'd say the palm is mostly sterile and it's not worth the time and effort to pollinate to get so few seeds. There are several new spathes pushing out and it appears it will flower year round. The palm has grown like a rocket this summer and the tips of the new fronds are about 20 feet high.

Dick


It happens to my Butias that the first inflorescences held not one and sometimes only a few fruits....Maybe this latter will be better ....???
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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#129 PalmGuyWC

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 02:02 AM

Hi Alberto,

Oddly, it was the first inflorescence that held the most seeds. I'm sure Patrick will keep trying.

Dick
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#130 Nigel

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 09:21 AM

For best of chance of some success I would guess Butia pollen might give a better result.
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#131 Alberto

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 02:25 PM

....maybe Nigel,but will not result in the most interesting palm with 3/4 Butia blood....
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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#132 PalmGuyWC

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 04:01 PM

Patrick was here early this morning to pollinate the last inflorescence of the season. He used Bujubaea pollen. There are other spathes emerging, but I doubt they will open until next spring with cooler weather expected here soon. I expect he will try Butia and Syagrus next.

Dick
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#133 TimHopper

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 01:17 PM

The Butia x Parajubaea that I got last year came from Patrick. It is picking up speed as the weather cools off. It came as a 2-leaf seedling and is now in a 7 gallon container.

Posted Image
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#134 Ken Johnson

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 06:17 PM

I am thinking these types may grow well in warm climates and then be sold farther north. I realy want to try some. In the past Syagarus hybrids have done real well for me.
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#135 Mandrew968

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:59 AM

Erik, I think what Nigel is saying is you come off as an elitist(and you are not even running the show, either). I can see what he is saying, as you are very secretive with your techniques, yet boastful of your success. I also see that what you are helping with is very exciting and possibly lucrative--hence the hush hush tendencies you keep.

Palmtalk is not a tool for people to make lots of money with--it can be used in that way, but people can get upset when there is no reciprocity; promote your business, but also share and be positive of what others are trying to do, instead of doubting other's abilities to be as productive as you and your master(not meant as a negative title, but as an apprentice/master relationship). I do enjoy reading your posts and one day, hope to be a customer for some of the awesome things you are Frankensteining! I mention this because I feel you care about other's feelings, and like me, often(maybe not often, but I do often! lol) hurt some without direct intentions. Ok--I said my piece; Carry on!!! :) :)
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#136 ErikSJI

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:22 AM

Erik, I think what Nigel is saying is you come off as an elitist(and you are not even running the show, either). I can see what he is saying, as you are very secretive with your techniques, yet boastful of your success. I also see that what you are helping with is very exciting and possibly lucrative--hence the hush hush tendencies you keep.

Palmtalk is not a tool for people to make lots of money with--it can be used in that way, but people can get upset when there is no reciprocity; promote your business, but also share and be positive of what others are trying to do, instead of doubting other's abilities to be as productive as you and your master(not meant as a negative title, but as an apprentice/master relationship). I do enjoy reading your posts and one day, hope to be a customer for some of the awesome things you are Frankensteining! I mention this because I feel you care about other's feelings, and like me, often(maybe not often, but I do often! lol) hurt some without direct intentions. Ok--I said my piece; Carry on!!! :) :)

Thanks. I will refrain from saying anything more then that as I would not want to hurt anyone's feelings directly or indirectly. You are welcome to message me anytime and I can fill in the blanks for you. :)
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#137 TimHopper

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 03:59 PM

I am thinking these types may grow well in warm climates and then be sold farther north. I realy want to try some. In the past Syagarus hybrids have done real well for me.


Ken, I also think they would fill a gap farther North. They do well here during Summer, and grow even faster in Winter. Tim
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#138 ErikSJI

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 04:08 PM

I am thinking these types may grow well in warm climates and then be sold farther north. I realy want to try some. In the past Syagarus hybrids have done real well for me.

It would be interesting to see if they can grow in south Florida. I have heard parajubaea do not grow well at all down south.
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#139 IdolLurker

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 04:13 PM


I am thinking these types may grow well in warm climates and then be sold farther north. I realy want to try some. In the past Syagarus hybrids have done real well for me.


Ken, I also think they would fill a gap farther North. They do well here during Summer, and grow even faster in Winter. Tim


Is there any truth to the idea if you grow from seed in the north there may be some benefits - like a greater tolerance for cold hardiness for the next generation? And if that is the case then the reverse might be possible where they can tolerate the warmer climate during FL summers?
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#140 Mandrew968

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:53 AM



I am thinking these types may grow well in warm climates and then be sold farther north. I realy want to try some. In the past Syagarus hybrids have done real well for me.


Ken, I also think they would fill a gap farther North. They do well here during Summer, and grow even faster in Winter. Tim


Is there any truth to the idea if you grow from seed in the north there may be some benefits - like a greater tolerance for cold hardiness for the next generation? And if that is the case then the reverse might be possible where they can tolerate the warmer climate during FL summers?


If it helps, it will be over generations and generations plus more generations on top of that--cold tolerance is not an easy thing to build up, and certainly not in one generation.

I think what you heard is refering to leaves; a Chamaerops grown in a warm climate can be taken up north and the leaves will be burnt till it can acclimate. On the other hand, you can't take a Chamaerops seed and grow it in Canada.
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#141 tank

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:40 AM



I am thinking these types may grow well in warm climates and then be sold farther north. I realy want to try some. In the past Syagarus hybrids have done real well for me.


Ken, I also think they would fill a gap farther North. They do well here during Summer, and grow even faster in Winter. Tim


Is there any truth to the idea if you grow from seed in the north there may be some benefits - like a greater tolerance for cold hardiness for the next generation? And if that is the case then the reverse might be possible where they can tolerate the warmer climate during FL summers?


Unfortunately,
Thats not the way it works. You would need to select for only those plants that handle the cold better and only propagate those within the group.

Individual plants may harden up due to repeated exposure, but that is a different discussion.
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#142 floridagrower

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:24 PM

I agree with Nigel and Mandrew. Eric, us locals are getting tired of your unsolicited advertisements and emails. I understand your overloaded with hybrids, but I suggest you sell those to the big boxes as pindos. The market cannot stand that kind of inventory. Otherwise, this is a great thread.
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#143 TimHopper

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 04:06 PM

Here is an updated photo of my Butia x Parajubaea created by Patrick, shown earlier above in post #133. This is one of my prize palms, and I congratulate Patrick on his hybridizing successes. Tim
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
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#144 Jeff zone 8 N.C.

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:46 PM

Great looking palm Tim! It is without a doubt BxP. I have BxP. cocoides from Patrick. What Parajubaea was the mother of your plant? Cocoides, torallyi, or sunka.
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#145 Nigel

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:05 PM

Wow thats 3 fully divided new leaves since october. And thats your winter. Unbelieavble growth speeed.
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#146 Mark Heath

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:05 PM

Here is an updated photo of my Butia x Parajubaea created by Patrick, shown earlier above in post #133. This is one of my prize palms, and I congratulate Patrick on his hybridizing successes. Tim
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


Wow Tim, Looks fantastic!! Get that baby in the ground and you'll get even more speed from it!
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#147 Alberto

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

Here is a photo of the BxP spathe taken on March 16th, 2011.



And here is a bonus shot of Dick. (I must add that this palm is extremely vigorous!)



Today I found 3 spathas forming on my biggest BxP . I also have 3 spathas growing on my Parajubaea sunkha. I was wondering if I could hibridyze my BxP with P.sunhka pollen....?

Dick, how was de seed set on the other inflorescences of your BxP?


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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#148 Alberto

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

Here is a photo of the BxP spathe taken on March 16th, 2011.



And here is a bonus shot of Dick. (I must add that this palm is extremely vigorous!)



Today I found 3 spathas forming on my biggest BxP . I also have 3 spathas growing on my Parajubaea sunkha. I was wondering if I could hibridyze my BxP with P.sunhka pollen....?

Dick, how was de seed set on the other inflorescences of your BxP?


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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#149 PalmGuyWC

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:04 PM

Alberto,

The only seeds that set on my Butia X Parajubaea was with Jubaea. Only 5 seeds remain and they are stil ripening. They are round and almost as large as a ping pong ball. Half of the fruit is green and the other half is turning purple. None of the other pollens worked including self polinization.

Alberto, how about a picture of your Butia X Parajubaeas?

Dick
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#150 Alberto

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:46 PM

Here are some pics of my two BxJ that shows spathes. First of them was the one I transplanted to this place. Despíte it is growing well its tinier then some at the original place, but it shows a spathe!!!!

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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#151 Alberto

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

The bigger BxJ has 3 spathes( photographed on two different days and different light)
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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#152 Alberto

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

The bigger BxJ has 3 spathes( photographed on two different days and different light) Second pic was taken by Leonard with daddy for scale....... ;-)

The spathes are flat like the ones from Parajubaea suhka but covered with a more black/dark brown tomentum. two are upright pointed and one is curved to the soil

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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#153 iamjv

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:16 AM

Alberto, those are some beauties you have there.... those palms sure seem to love your location and treatment! Thanks for the update!
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Jv
San Antonio Texas / Zone 8
extremes past 21 yrs: 117F (47.2C) /  14F (-8.8C)
http://www.palmsocietysouthtexas.org/
http://community.web...tropicaljohnnyv


#154 Jeff zone 8 N.C.

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:18 PM

The bigger BxJ has 3 spathes( photographed on two different days and different light) Second pic was taken by Leonard with daddy for scale....... ;-)

The spathes are flat like the ones from Parajubaea suhka but covered with a more black/dark brown tomentum. two are upright pointed and one is curved to the soil

Alberto those palms are beautiful and your children are adorable. Leonard framed that picture of you perfectly. I am a little confused though. Those palms look like B x P but the text says B x J.
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#155 Alberto

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:21 PM


The bigger BxJ has 3 spathes( photographed on two different days and different light) Second pic was taken by Leonard with daddy for scale....... ;-)

The spathes are flat like the ones from Parajubaea suhka but covered with a more black/dark brown tomentum. two are upright pointed and one is curved to the soil

Alberto those palms are beautiful and your children are adorable. Leonard framed that picture of you perfectly. I am a little confused though. Those palms look like B x P but the text says B x J.


Sorry! This are of course Butia x Parajubaea cocoides.



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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#156 Jeff zone 8 N.C.

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:50 PM


The bigger BxJ has 3 spathes( photographed on two different days and different light) Second pic was taken by Leonard with daddy for scale....... ;-)

The spathes are flat like the ones from Parajubaea suhka but covered with a more black/dark brown tomentum. two are upright pointed and one is curved to the soil

Alberto those palms are beautiful and your children are adorable. Leonard framed that picture of you perfectly.

Alberto could you please tell us how long those two B x P have been growing there? I think I remember you planting three there together (maybe a couple of years ago?) and then quickly moving the one from between those in your picture.

Edited by Jeff zone 8 N.C., 08 April 2012 - 12:07 AM.

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#157 Mark Heath

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:56 AM

Alberto,
You have taken very good care of those guys!! Congrats w/ the spathes, i wish mine would flower but i am happy to have a palm w/ Parajubaea in it
none the less.
Please keep us updated w/ your viability/crossing results.
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Orlando, Florida
zone 9b
The Pollen Poacher!!
GO DOLPHINS!!
GO GATORS!!!

Palms, Sex, Money and horsepower,,,, you may have more than you can handle,,
but too much is never enough!!

#158 Alberto

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:26 AM



The bigger BxJ has 3 spathes( photographed on two different days and different light) Second pic was taken by Leonard with daddy for scale....... ;-)

The spathes are flat like the ones from Parajubaea suhka but covered with a more black/dark brown tomentum. two are upright pointed and one is curved to the soil

Alberto those palms are beautiful and your children are adorable. Leonard framed that picture of you perfectly.

Alberto could you please tell us how long those two B x P have been growing there? I think I remember you planting three there together (maybe a couple of years ago?) and then quickly moving the one from between those in your picture.

Here you can see the development of my B x P (3 and 1/2 year after the first pic on the following topic)
http://www.palmtalk....showtopic=21211
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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

#159 PalmGuyWC

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:32 AM

Here are a couple of photos of my B X P taken April 8,1012.

Dick

Attached Thumbnails

  • P1000795.JPG
  • P1000796.JPG

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Richard Douglas

#160 Alberto

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:36 PM

Beautifull palm you have there, Dick!

The leaflets of your B x P looks more drooping then on my palms. How long are the fronds and middle (longest) leaflets?
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Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.
Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!





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