Veitchias, How Do You Tell Them Apart?

[hanapalms]

Which one is this?

I have a fairly grown specimen of Veitchia winnin that shows a slightly less buldge at the base of the trunk, but very difficult to see any other difference from V. joannis, arecina, etc.

[Walter John]

Hi William, I used to post heaps about the Veitchias I used to grow. The difference I only ever saw was in the fruit size and in the overall size of joannis (bigger/bolder/taller). I stopped posting because I felt I was over reporting on Veitchias.

I agree though, Veitchias and Archontophoenix are under reported along with some others (Clinostigma eg.) which is crazy because these palms are arguably the best pinnate palms of them all.

It could be to do with the fact that we don't get many warm sub-tropical/tropical posters here. The same happens on the bamboo forums, there's far too many cooler climate running bamboo threads.

That's my take, I'm Wal, this is Burrawang Mana, goodnight.

[Tyrone]

Veitchia's are great. I'm growing 3 species, but my favourite is joannis hands down. I've got some winin coming along too which will be planted out in spring. They are smaller seeded and are slower. V winin can look very black in the trunk and petiole, compared to joannis. I love them all. I wish I could get my hands on more.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Ken Johnson]

In Florida we grow lots of 'em but thier popularity was warn off. One problem may be that they grow too tall! In the past growers have tried to name them different things but now a days most are called Montgomeries. The common names like Sunshine are used too.

The name game with them is a problem. To make it worse it looks like most of the stock here is hybridized. Joannis, the Fiji species, does look a bit different but the only ones I'v seen that look "real" are from FTBG. The rest may as well be the same.

[peachy]

I cant really tell one veitchia from another...they all look about the same to me. I have had a joannis here for 3 years, in that time it has sent up one new leaf and sits around looking miserable. Last year I planted a winin and one of the other common ones whose name I forget and they both have powered along for me, but they still have to get thru winter, so its a case of wait and see before I get too enthusiastic about them.

Peachy

[JASON M]

People mistake the Christmas palm for Veitchia Merrilli and not Adonidia Merrilli!

[quaman58]

A lot of posters are California guys, and as Wal mentioned, they are a decidedly challenging grow here. (Long cool winters). Hence the relative lack of interest. But I try every different one I can get my hands on. V. arecina & joannis have been in the ground for 3 years now. V. metiti, sessilifolia, & vitiensis are growing steadily away in the cold frame. We'll see how it goes; but they're just too beautiful not make the effort.

[Central Floridave]

Are you sure that photo is a vietchia? I don't recognize it but also have not seen them all.

I have a bunch of different types, but mostly joannis and montgomery. They do all look the same. Mine saw 30F degrees this past winter and the ones under canopy show no damage. Out under open sky and they got burnt, but have now all pushed out new growth. They seem to be more cold tolerant than christmas palms.

[epicure3]

Veitchia is my favorite palm. I might be the only one, though. V. arecina is a great, fast grower for me and a few are seeding or flowering right now. There are some around San Diego, but they are by no means a common palm and you can only purchase them at specialty palm places. V. joannis and others are a touchy grow here, but not so the arecina.

[JungleGina]

I lost my Christmas palms and Montgomeries this past winter. The entire crowns flopped over so all hope is lost.

[realarch]

Gotta say Veitchia is a striking palm. Not only the most beautiful, but the fastest growing in my garden.

Wal, you must have been posting about Veitchia before my time because I don't remember any. Of course

back then having a palm garden was just a dream.

Here are a couple of Veitchia arecina pics, one from April 2009, and the same palm this morning, so just a bit over a year. Rocket!

[Dypsisdean]

I heard from someone in the know during the last HIPS meeting that Veitchias are next to impossible to prevent from hybridizing between species. He believed the only pure Veitchia species here in Kona are those that are old and mature, and that all the newer and younger ones are crosses. He further stated that the only way to observe the true shape and ability to determine if they are pure is when they are well into maturity, with more than 10-15 feet of trunk. He dug and planted many with almost 10 ft. of trunk for a street planting that appeared pure, but have since grown taller and now look like crosses.

So his lesson was any seed collected in cultivation is suspect, and you won't know for a decade or more.

[Zeeth]

I heard from someone in the know during the last HIPS meeting that Veitchias are next to impossible to prevent from hybridizing between species. He believed the only pure Veitchia species here in Kona are those that are old and mature, and that all the newer and younger ones are crosses. He further stated that the only way to observe the true shape and ability to determine if they are pure is when they are well into maturity, with more than 10-15 feet of trunk. He dug and planted many with almost 10 ft. of trunk for a street planting that appeared pure, but have since grown taller and now look like crosses.

So his lesson was any seed collected in cultivation is suspect, and you won't know for a decade or more.

Interesting... I sure wish Veitchias were planted more often here than they presently are. There are a few locally that made it through this most recent freeze (defoliated, but coming back strong), but you really don't see them too often. It's a shame too, as they are likely hardier than the overabundant Christmas palm, and much prettier.

[Xenon]

People mistake the Christmas palm for Veitchia Merrilli and not Adonidia Merrilli!

They're both the same palms. I like Veitchia and Veitchia looking palms...especially Bentinckia.

Jonathan

Edited June 14, 2010 by Xenon

[Ntheastpalms]

Veitchia palms are one of my favourites & I have 4 species growing here.

The larger species are quite tough & I have had a V winnin grow through winter where the minimum temperature was 2 deg C.

Call me crazy William but the palm pictured looks a little like a Bentickia nicobarica, but I may be wrong.

[Daryl]

As for telling all of the large ones apart... good luck! I suspect the hybrid theory is correct and this doesn't help in IDing the true species. V.joannis always had more drooping leaflets when compared to the various forms of V.arecina, but I don't know if this a reliable trait. This is only on mature palms. V.joannis is supposed to have larger seed, but V.arecina seed size appears variable and some specimens I've seen have had 'joannis size' seed. Here's some of mine which confuse me no end...

The parent of this was labeled as V.mongomeryana, now V.arecina

The parent of this was labeled as V.joannis

The parent of this was labeled as V.joannis

Personally, I think Veitchia vitiensis is a gorgeous palm. It has similar overall form to the common Veitchias, but is only half the size, and it has that beautiful mottled crownshaft.

Daryl

[Tyrone]

I heard from someone in the know during the last HIPS meeting that Veitchias are next to impossible to prevent from hybridizing between species. He believed the only pure Veitchia species here in Kona are those that are old and mature, and that all the newer and younger ones are crosses. He further stated that the only way to observe the true shape and ability to determine if they are pure is when they are well into maturity, with more than 10-15 feet of trunk. He dug and planted many with almost 10 ft. of trunk for a street planting that appeared pure, but have since grown taller and now look like crosses.

So his lesson was any seed collected in cultivation is suspect, and you won't know for a decade or more.

Interesting. Well my large V joannis is planted amongst some Foxy Ladies, so I wonder if they'll all get to know each other if you know what I mean. I wonder if I could cross one with a Carpentaria, or if a Carpentaria will cross with a Foxy Lady. I've got Wodyetia X V joannis's together growing with V joannis, and Carpentaria's and Wodyetia's so it may all get a little weird one day. I wonder what sort of hybrid vigour would be created. My Foxy Ladies are my fastest palms followed by Hyophorbe indica, Veitchia joannis, and Carpentaria. I think I may keep my V winin's away from that grouping though. I would want to keep them a bit more pure.

Best regards

Tyrone

[hanapalms]

I got pretty good idea where these mingling Veitchias are getting their good looks from. Wal, I'll watch for the fruit size when they start producing, I've got some in the ground:

I kinda lost track of who is who here. They're all suppose to be Veitchia. We don't have the winter cold to deal with here, but sometimes the rain can be a pain.

their leaves all look alike, is there a difference in their stems? The third from the left is the one pictured at the top of this string. To the left of it is an arecina and to the right is a joannis. The far left one is anyone's guess.

Tyrone,I would definitely say these are minglers, they're so blended together maybe it'll all be one species in the end. They do get quite tall Ken, and may not work too well in FL cold spells.

Peachy, I hope they make it through your winter. Something we take for granted here. Strangely, there are some palms that do not like living in Hawaii.

Jason, Veitchia merrillii was the old name for the Christmas palm; it got changed to Adonidia not too long ago. I'm not aware of any other species in the genus Adonidia besides merrillii.

these are young Veitchia; the nearest one should be arecina, I think

Bret, I would think San Diego may be a little warmer than the rest of Cal; I went to school in Orange, it wasn't that cold in the winter, as far as I remember, of course that was long time back and I was much younger then. Good to see that you're getting along with your Veitchias.

Floridave, yeah, Adonidia happened to merrillii and made it more sensitive to cold.

John, good to hear arecina does okay in S.D where you are, hope joannis gets accustomed.

Gina, I notice that FL and Cal don't always have cold problems with the same species or genus. Sorry to hear you lost your A. merrillii and montgomeries (is that really what you call Veitchias?)

Tim, your arecina looks good. I have arecina, joannis & "generic" Veitchia in gal. pots. The one's I put in the ground, I cannot tell apart anymore and forgot to mark each tree with a label the only one I know for sure is the V. winin because I remember where I planted it; it's the only one of that species that I have in the garden.

Dean, since we are seeing hybridization of Veitchia to the point of not being able to separate the species, I coined my own species name: "generic" to take care of all unknown species.

Zeeth, yeah, I figured A. merrillii has a hard time in FL, Gina lost hers last winter as well as her montgomeries.

Jonathan, I'm trying to figure out your weather conditions in TX as compared with FL and Cal. Would you say similar? or do you maintain more warmth through the winter?

Matt, Daryl, Peachy, I guess you guys are entering winter or in it already? Matt, I had no idea what kind of palm I had when I posted the first photo above until I lined it up with the other potted palms. They all have the same kind of leaves; the crownshaft coloring varies, the "generic" and arecina have similar coloration and the other "generic" and joannis have similar coloration. Our "generic" species is like a joker in cards, it can fill in for anything.

The crownshaft or leaf bases all seem to have that distinct darkness defining the edge of the leaf base just above the crownshaft. The leaf bases sport that interesting speckled appearance.

Thanks for your comments. These are beautiful trees, and at least here, they grow quite fast.

Edited June 15, 2010 by hanapalms

[JASON M]

People mistake the Christmas palm for Veitchia Merrilli and not Adonidia Merrilli!

They're both the same palms.

Jonathan

Well, the correct name is Adonidia Merrilli.

[Dypsisdean]

Actually, the accepted name is Adonidia merrillii.

[hanapalms]

Veitchia palms are one of my favourites & I have 4 species growing here.

The larger species are quite tough & I have had a V winnin grow through winter where the minimum temperature was 2 deg C.

Call me crazy William but the palm pictured looks a little like a Bentickia nicobarica, but I may be wrong.

Hey Matt,

Actually, I went out to take a look at some older specimens of that first palm and you may be right, or at least I may be wrong on assuming it is a Veitchia. The older palms in the ground do not have that typical dark coloration on the leaf base edges that wrap around the stem (trunk). So what is it? I thought the only Bentinkia nicobarica I had had died, so I wasn't even considering that species. I'll look it up and see if it might be the one. Thanks.

Edited June 15, 2010 by hanapalms

[fiji jim]

Veitchia is a difficult genus to identify for sure.

Even V.filifera from different locations here on Vanua Levu look quiet different.

That is perhaps why they were once thought to be three separate species.

However when I see them (palms that were definitely grown from seed from their habitat) the differences are not so difficult to see. It is easy to see the differences between them except for some of the V.filifera and V.vitiensis.

[John in Andalucia]

My little Veitchia arecina forest. They grow well with surprisingly little water, as some of these cells drain in seconds. They seem resilient to spider mite and scale, although I did have problems last year with young grasshoppers.

[The Germinator]

I find them easy to tell apart as seedlings the arecina have redish petioles but the spiralis do not. The only other one I have germed up was joannis and it does look slightly different than spiralis but it would be tough with out knowing what you have.

[chris.oz]

Down here at -38 deg south.... well by the extremes its 10a but forget growing Veitchia or Adonidia from seed.

I was impressed by Veithchia arecina, its a supercharged palm and one of the fastest I ever germinated and very distinctive

If I lived in the sub tropics this would be a must have palm to start a palm garden.

Here the climate is not warm enough for it, because they all failed to even get a leaf when I put them out in spring.

[ariscott]

Because I can't find any locally!!! I have what I thought was V. winin and it ended up to be Foxy lady - which is going to flower... Not sure whether it will produce viable seeds, I guess we shall see. I don't mind planting more if I can find them first!!

Regards, Ari

[Tyrone]

I wouldn't complain that you got a Foxy Lady Ari. I believe that they do set viable seed, although very few stay on the tree. Rich Trapnell who did the first ones by accident told me that. How big is your one? I can't wait until mine flower. They're getting up there now. They would be the fastest growing thing I have, even faster than Eucalytpus!!!!!!!!!.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Walter John]

Here's an old photo of one of my Veitchias.... I used to have

[Tyrone]

Nice pic Wal. They flower quite early by the looks of it. Can't wait until mine does.

Best regards

Tyrone

[peachy]

Because I can't find any locally!!! I have what I thought was V. winin and it ended up to be Foxy lady - which is going to flower... Not sure whether it will produce viable seeds, I guess we shall see. I don't mind planting more if I can find them first!!

Regards, Ari

Rotten darwin sheilas...not only can they grow all the things I like and cant, but they fluke foxy ladies too when poor mugs like peachy have been trying for years. May all your shoes look like Leonie Norringtons.

Peachy

[ariscott]

I wouldn't complain that you got a Foxy Lady Ari. I believe that they do set viable seed, although very few stay on the tree. Rich Trapnell who did the first ones by accident told me that. How big is your one? I can't wait until mine flower. They're getting up there now. They would be the fastest growing thing I have, even faster than Eucalytpus!!!!!!!!!.

Best regards

Tyrone

Not complaining, Tyrone... lol. Pity it is only one!! It is pretty big... very fast. I have to post pics of it. I have to take a lot of photos this weekend of different stuff, so I will take photos of the Foxy Lady too....

Peachy,

Leonie's shoes?? I don't mind her hat...

Regards, Ari

[Manolitus]

Clinostigmas are much prettier and elegant palms than Veitchias. I think all the cross hybridizing really dilutes them and its just not appealing.....to me.

The true archontopheonix's form Queenslands are VEERY pretty palms also and in my opinion are constantly mis-identfied here in Florida.

My two cents.

[Xenon]

I love this picture...

Jonathan

[hanapalms]

Here's an old photo of one of my Veitchias.... I used to have

That certainly is a clear photo Wal, I was taking notice of the leaf bases just above the crownshaft on my trees; they are mostly silvery gray with a dark, almost black, tint at the edges where the base wraps around the trunk.

Now I'm finding that the original photo in this string may be of some other genus, I'll take some comparison photos to make my point clearer. Will post tomorrow.

[hanapalms]

Clinostigmas are much prettier and elegant palms than Veitchias. I think all the cross hybridizing really dilutes them and its just not appealing.....to me.

The true archontopheonix's form Queenslands are VEERY pretty palms also and in my opinion are constantly mis-identfied here in Florida.

My two cents.

I find both Clinostigma and Archontophoenix very attractive genuses as I do the Veitchia . The Neoveitchia is special too.

I have seen mature Clinostigma samoense and ponapense, but none of the other species as adults. I have a harlandii and savoryana young plants in 2 gal. pots. My samoense is the largest of these, it's in the ground, reaches at least ten feet high and still has some undivided leaves. The ponapense I have is also in the ground; it is only four or five feet tall and has no undivided leaves.

Here're two of the three Neoveitchias in the garden.

[Wanderanwills]

Which Veitchias would grow in Sydney Australia?

Regards

Stephen

[Ken Johnson]

My little Veitchia arecina forest. They grow well with surprisingly little water, as some of these cells drain in seconds. They seem resilient to spider mite and scale, although I did have problems last year with young grasshoppers.

Len has been eating your Veitchias?

[peachy]

Which Veitchias would grow in Sydney Australia?

Regards

Stephen

Joannis, probably Winin and Merilli (which they now call adonidia but it still looks like veitchia) I think they are all still growing in the Sydney Botanical Gardens.

Peachy

[Zeeth]

Which species is most cold hardy?

[Ken Johnson]

Which species is most cold hardy?

NONE!