Sabal gretherae

[Kailua_Krish]

Does anyone know anything about this palm? This is the first time I've ever heard of it. I was going through the Kew list to see how many more Sabals I needed to collect the genus (minus the cold sensitive ones yapa and maur... however you spell it) and this name came up. Info on the web is scarce.

-Krishna

[iamjv]

It's mentioned in the blog at Palmpedia.net... here are two excerpts:

"The other palm was Sabal gretherae. This Sabal comes from the state of Quintana roo, Mexico and I believe it was named back in the early nineties. I can't find photo's of it or any record of it being used by locals or if seed or seedlings can be had."

"The Sabal I stumbled on, looking through the Trebrown nurseries "complete list of palm species" I was looking for something else in Syagrus when I looked through Sabal. I had never heard of gretherae before. The Kew monocot list backs it up as well."

These statements came from palmpedia

Jv

[sarasota alex]

Very interesting!

I checked Dr. Zona's monograph and it has no mention of Sabal gretherae. But then again the monograph is dated 1990 and the species was first described in 1991. I think mexicana, yapa and mauritiformis are all found in Quintana Roo.

If it's a new species I would expect there to be an archived article on the IPS website from the Palms (Principes)

BTW Krishna, I think collecting Sabals is cool

[Kailua_Krish]

Very interesting!

I checked Dr. Zona's monograph and it has no mention of Sabal gretherae. But then again the monograph is dated 1990 and the species was first described in 1991. I think mexicana, yapa and mauritiformis are all found in Quintana Roo.

If it's a new species I would expect there to be an archived article on the IPS website from the Palms (Principes)

BTW Krishna, I think collecting Sabals is cool

Thanks! I recently got a supposed S. miamiensis but I wont know for sure until it flowers. Hopefully it is one though. S. bermudana and S. gretherae are the only two I think I'm still looking for. I have S. mexicana, palmetto, maritima, causiarum, domingensis, minor, etonia, pumos, and rosei. In addition I have sp. brazoria, blackburniana, and tamaulipas. Hopefully the list is getting pretty complete. I really just want to be able to look at all of them and decide whether or not I agree with the "all sabals look the same" opinion.

-Krishna

[monkeyranch]

I found another site with info. Palmweb.org: My link It is also on Fairchild gardens site but without much info and only a link to the iucn redlist: My link

[Kailua_Krish]

That's all I could find on it before also

-Krishna

[Beach palm]

Don't give up on mauritiiformis so quickly. i have been growing one at the beach in St augustine for over 10 yrs. Came thru last winter without a scratch. How about Sabal Lisa and uresana? Uresana is easily hardy enough for you.

Rick

Edited December 24, 2010 by Beach palm

[Kailua_Krish]

Don't give up on mauritiiformis so quickly. i have been growing one at the beach in St augustine for over 10 yrs. Came thru last winter without a scratch. How about Sabal Lisa and uresana? Uresana is easily hardy enough for you.

Rick

Have both of those. I'm pretty sure Ocala gets quite a bit colder than ST. Augustine since we are so far inland and I'd rather not get another palm that I have to worry about during the winter. The past 2 years have cured me of that affliction

-Krishna

[sonoranfans]

I also think collecting sabals is cool. It seems that many palm growers overlook them in search of the tropical look, but a big sabal is an awesome palm. I have only small ones, mostly in 3-5g containers, that I am going to be patient with and plant out in the coming years. I have uresana, causiarum, lisa, domingensis, and a mauritiiformis to be delivered next week. When I lived in arizona I had a huge blackburniana about 15' overall and 18' wide, awesome palm with huge 6' fans. My neighbors here have several palmettos so they are in my yardview. I have come to the conclusion that sabals will help keep things warmer here in the long run so that I can grow some more cold sensitive palms around them.

[Kailua_Krish]

I also think collecting sabals is cool. It seems that many palm growers overlook them in search of the tropical look, but a big sabal is an awesome palm. I have only small ones, mostly in 3-5g containers, that I am going to be patient with and plant out in the coming years. I have uresana, causiarum, lisa, domingensis, and a mauritiiformis to be delivered next week. When I lived in arizona I had a huge blackburniana about 15' overall and 18' wide, awesome palm with huge 6' fans. My neighbors here have several palmettos so they are in my yardview. I have come to the conclusion that sabals will help keep things warmer here in the long run so that I can grow some more cold sensitive palms around them.

The only problem is that even in Florida they are slow to gain height. All of mine are seedlings as I dont normally buy larger palms so I'm looking at a good 10-20 years before they make a canopy Wish they grew as fast as queens!

-Krishna

[sonoranfans]

I also think collecting sabals is cool. It seems that many palm growers overlook them in search of the tropical look, but a big sabal is an awesome palm. I have only small ones, mostly in 3-5g containers, that I am going to be patient with and plant out in the coming years. I have uresana, causiarum, lisa, domingensis, and a mauritiiformis to be delivered next week. When I lived in arizona I had a huge blackburniana about 15' overall and 18' wide, awesome palm with huge 6' fans. My neighbors here have several palmettos so they are in my yardview. I have come to the conclusion that sabals will help keep things warmer here in the long run so that I can grow some more cold sensitive palms around them.

The only problem is that even in Florida they are slow to gain height. All of mine are seedlings as I dont normally buy larger palms so I'm looking at a good 10-20 years before they make a canopy Wish they grew as fast as queens!

-Krishna

the slowest part of a sabals life is the first 4-5 years. For this reason, perhaps starting with a size of a 1-3 gallons would start things off a little faster. I just bought a few nice 1-2g sabals(domengensis, uresana) from tejas tropicals, nice plants! My causiarum was a small 8" strapleaf one gallon two years ago this may. Its been in the ground for one year this april, and its showing signs of speeding up (@ 30" tall overall) and put out 4 fronds(3 divided) this past summer, fall. My experience with sabals in AZ(blackburniana, bermudana, uresana) is they need to grow an underground root structure before they can come upt to speed. This is why they should be put in the ground early on in life. Sabals like heat, so they can grow moderately in florida, but they do need to be in he ground perhaps a year or so to develop the root system necessary for the best growth. Once they developa trunk they really take off. My blackburniana was putting out 11-12 fronds a year with 2 1/2' of clear trunk. As far as canopy, yeah it will take 15 years from now for them to be fully overhead. But some say(and I agree) a sabal of 12-15' overall height is the most attractive, and that is only 6-7 years away.

Edited December 25, 2010 by sonoranfans

[Kailua_Krish]

I also think collecting sabals is cool. It seems that many palm growers overlook them in search of the tropical look, but a big sabal is an awesome palm. I have only small ones, mostly in 3-5g containers, that I am going to be patient with and plant out in the coming years. I have uresana, causiarum, lisa, domingensis, and a mauritiiformis to be delivered next week. When I lived in arizona I had a huge blackburniana about 15' overall and 18' wide, awesome palm with huge 6' fans. My neighbors here have several palmettos so they are in my yardview. I have come to the conclusion that sabals will help keep things warmer here in the long run so that I can grow some more cold sensitive palms around them.

The only problem is that even in Florida they are slow to gain height. All of mine are seedlings as I dont normally buy larger palms so I'm looking at a good 10-20 years before they make a canopy Wish they grew as fast as queens!

-Krishna

the slowest part of a sabals life is the first 4-5 years. For this reason, perhaps starting with a size of a 1-3 gallons would start things off a little faster. I just bought a few nice 1-2g sabals(domengensis, uresana) from tejas tropicals, nice plants! My causiarum was a small 8" strapleaf one gallon two years ago this may. Its been in the ground for one year this april, and its showing signs of speeding up (@ 30" tall overall) and put out 4 fronds(3 divided) this past summer fall. My experience with sabals in AZ(blackburniana, bermudana, uresana) is they need to grow an underground root structure before they can come upt to speed. This is why they should be put in the ground early on in life. Sabals like heat, so they can grow moderately in florida, but they do need to be in he ground perhaps a year or so to develop the root system necessary for the best growth. Once they developa trunk they really take off. My blackburniana was putting out 11-12 fronds a year with 2 1/2' of clear trunk. As far as canopy, yeah it will take 15 years from now for them to be fully overhead. But some say(and I agree) a sabal of 12-15' overall height is the most attractive, and that is only 6-7 years away.

Mine go in the ground as strap-leafed seedlings so no problem with the lack of root growth over time! I just find them easier in Florida to go straight in the ground, then you dont have to worry about watering pots or any of the problems that go along with potted palms.

-Krishna

[Eric in Orlando]

Sabal gretherae is supposed to be very similar to S. mexicana. I've never seen seed offered .

[JasonD]

Andrew Henderson's Field Guide to Palms of the Americas (where he and his co-authors tended to lump species) maintains Sabal gretheriae as a species separate from S. mexicana. It has a different chromosome number, to take one difference. It also appears to have larger and differently shaped fruits. The habitat shown on Henderson's range maps is the very northeast tip of the Yucatan -- around Cancun. It coexists in habitat with Sabal yapa but not S. mexicana.

I think you should try Sabal yapa, as well. Inge Hoffmann had one in her garden here in the Bay Area and I believe it survived the freeze of 1990, when temperatures dropped into the mid- or low twenties F at the Hoffmanns' house for many days in a row. When I saw it about four years ago it was beautiful, but later perished. It's a really nice species.

[Vinc]

I've got some seeds of this rare sabal species from RPS which are germinating know.

Does anyone grow this species as well and has some more information about this species and eventually also photos?

Thanks, Vincent

[PalmatierMeg]

I have one-leaf seedlings germinating from seeds I got from RPS. I can't post photos right now because they have been jammed onto my lanai somewhere with other Hurricane Irma refugee palms. I would assume they require what all Sabals require: sun, heat and occasional water.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I have about 60 one leaf plants as well. Congratulations!

[sonoranfans]

On 12/25/2010, 9:53:17, sonoranfans said:

 

the slowest part of a sabals life is the first 4-5 years. For this reason, perhaps starting with a size of a 1-3 gallons would start things off a little faster. I just bought a few nice 1-2g sabals(domengensis, uresana) from tejas tropicals, nice plants! My causiarum was a small 8" strapleaf one gallon two years ago this may. Its been in the ground for one year this april, and its showing signs of speeding up (@ 30" tall overall) and put out 4 fronds(3 divided) this past summer, fall. My experience with sabals in AZ(blackburniana, bermudana, uresana) is they need to grow an underground root structure before they can come upt to speed. This is why they should be put in the ground early on in life. Sabals like heat, so they can grow moderately in florida, but they do need to be in he ground perhaps a year or so to develop the root system necessary for the best growth. Once they developa trunk they really take off. My blackburniana was putting out 11-12 fronds a year with 2 1/2' of clear trunk. As far as canopy, yeah it will take 15 years from now for them to be fully overhead. But some say(and I agree) a sabal of 12-15' overall height is the most attractive, and that is only 6-7 years away.

update: 6 1/2 years later my domingensis is ~17-18' over all and it trunking a couple feet.  The bizzie next to it was a 15 gallon 4' overall at the time I planted my strap leaf domingensis.  Clearly the domingensis is catching up on the bizzie as time goes by.  By 10 years it will be well overhead at this rate.  Sabals arent that slow in florida I guess, a big carribean one may match a bizzie in growth.

Edited September 19, 2017 by sonoranfans

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

These are tiny little gretherae. The seeds looked almost identical to mexicana, just except darker in color. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

On 9/19/2017, 6:50:44, sonoranfans said:

update: 6 1/2 years later my domingensis is ~17-18' over all and it trunking a couple feet.  The bizzie next to it was a 15 gallon 4' overall at the time I planted my strap leaf domingensis.  Clearly the domingensis is catching up on the bizzie as time goes by.  By 10 years it will be well overhead at this rate.  Sabals arent that slow in florida I guess, a big carribean one may match a bizzie in growth.

Thats a really good looking sabal, but doesnt hold a candle to that silver bismarckia IMO

[sarasota alex]

I have seen mature Sabal gretherae in Cancun landscaping. Probably harvested from the wild. They don't grow that far away. Sabal yapa is the only Sabal native to Cancun itself, with Sabal gretherae being the next closest, about an hour-and-a-half out. Other Yucatan species S. mexicana, S. mauritiiformis, and S. guatemalensis grow much farther. Many hours away. The palms I saw matched Quero's original description. Basically if you are in Cancun and you see a Sabal that looks like a S. mexicana, but with a clear trunk - it's likely a S. gretherae.

[Fusca]

On 9/28/2017, 12:34:40, sarasota alex said:

I have seen mature Sabal gretherae in Cancun landscaping. Probably harvested from the wild. They don't grow that far away. Sabal yapa is the only Sabal native to Cancun itself, with Sabal gretherae being the next closest, about an hour-and-a-half out. Other Yucatan species S. mexicana, S. mauritiiformis, and S. guatemalensis grow much farther. Many hours away. The palms I saw matched Quero's original description. Basically if you are in Cancun and you see a Sabal that looks like a S. mexicana, but with a clear trunk - it's likely a S. gretherae.

I have a few seedlings from a plant labeled Sabal guatemalensis, but I had read somewhere that they were the same species as Sabal mexicana.  Do you think that they are different?  I don't know enough about the subtle differences to distinguish them.

Jon

[sarasota alex]

On 9/29/2017, 12:17:43, Fusca said:

I have a few seedlings from a plant labeled Sabal guatemalensis, but I had read somewhere that they were the same species as Sabal mexicana.  Do you think that they are different?  I don't know enough about the subtle differences to distinguish them.

Jon

Jon, Sabal guatemalensis has almost been universally treated as a separate species until in 1992 late Hermilo Quero treated S. guatemalensis populations in Southern Mexico as S. mexicana populations in his survey of Mexican palms. This was quickly picked up by a couple of more papers on Central American flora by other botanists. Subsequently this has caused S. guatemalensis to be listed as a S. mexicana synonym by Kew and not an accepted species. Quero, however, in 1991 has described S. gretheae as a species, which is about as different from S. mexicana as S. guatemalensis. I had a conversation about this with Andrew Henderson a couple of years ago, and the gist of it is - either S. gretherae and S. guatemalensis are both treated as synonyms to S. mexicana, or all three are treated as distinct species. Given that both Scott Zona's monograph on Sabal and Andrew Henderson's Field Guide to the Palms of the Americas treat S. guatemalensis as a separate species, I also accept it as a separate species. Most people, however, would follow what is listed by the Kew checklisted and treat it as a S. mexicana. Hope this helps!

[Fusca]

23 hours ago, sarasota alex said:

Jon, Sabal guatemalensis has almost been universally treated as a separate species until in 1992 late Hermilo Quero treated S. guatemalensis populations in Southern Mexico as S. mexicana populations in his survey of Mexican palms. This was quickly picked up by a couple of more papers on Central American flora by other botanists. Subsequently this has caused S. guatemalensis to be listed as a S. mexicana synonym by Kew and not an accepted species. Quero, however, in 1991 has described S. gretheae as a species, which is about as different from S. mexicana as S. guatemalensis. I had a conversation about this with Andrew Henderson a couple of years ago, and the gist of it is - either S. gretherae and S. guatemalensis are both treated as synonyms to S. mexicana, or all three are treated as distinct species. Given that both Scott Zona's monograph on Sabal and Andrew Henderson's Field Guide to the Palms of the Americas treat S. guatemalensis as a separate species, I also accept it as a separate species. Most people, however, would follow what is listed by the Kew checklisted and treat it as a S. mexicana. Hope this helps!

Thanks for the info.  Since I don't know what would distinguish the two I wouldn't be able to say that the arboretum had the palm correctly labeled but I'll assume so.  I certainly don't mind having a unique species!  All I can say is that it has not been a fast grower for me - 4 years from seed and has yet to go palmate.  I may plant them in the ground soon - hopefully they will pick up some speed.

[sarasota alex]

On 10/2/2017, 11:41:42, Fusca said:

Thanks for the info.  Since I don't know what would distinguish the two I wouldn't be able to say that the arboretum had the palm correctly labeled but I'll assume so.  I certainly don't mind having a unique species!  All I can say is that it has not been a fast grower for me - 4 years from seed and has yet to go palmate.  I may plant them in the ground soon - hopefully they will pick up some speed.

Jon, which arboretum was it from? For example Mercer Arboretum in Houston has a Sabal guatemalensis that is definitely properly labeled.

[Fusca]

17 hours ago, sarasota alex said:

Jon, which arboretum was it from? For example Mercer Arboretum in Houston has a Sabal guatemalensis that is definitely properly labeled.

That's the one - Mercer.  The seeds took their sweet time to germinate - maybe 6 months in a community pot.  If I remember right the fruit/seed looked identical to S. mexicana.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

On 10/4/2017, 11:11:26, Fusca said:

That's the one - Mercer.  The seeds took their sweet time to germinate - maybe 6 months in a community pot.  If I remember right the fruit/seed looked identical to S. mexicana.

Yea, the seeds from that tree are identical looking to mexicana. I grabbed a few and decided to not germinate them.  

[Palmsbro]

Does Sabal gretherae also have identical fruits and seeds to Sabal mexicana (like Sabal guatamalensis)?

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

2 hours ago, Palmsbro said:

Does Sabal gretherae also have identical fruits and seeds to Sabal mexicana (like Sabal guatamalensis)?

They looked very similar. Size and shape.