December Thread

[Palmy]

freezing nights these pas few. Temps have been around 30-35 for the last 2 nights and around 25 one night. It looks like temps will be more around 34-40, still a tad chilly but a lot better. Have had better starts to December than this one.

[happ]

Sorry about the temps in the Bay Area, Palmy     Only cities right on San Francisco bay stayed above 32; inland valleys plummeted.  Understand late season harvests in the Central valley took a hit.  

It is cold or warm depending on your location and wind.  

LA AIRPORT  :   77 /  45      

MALIBU :   74 /  65

Just across Santa Monica bay maybe 5-6 miles apart.

Looks like chilly nights are on the menu this week due to single digit humidity/below 0 dewpoints     The wind in Ventura/lower Santa Clarita valley drove the fire at 50MPH.  Fire departments can do virtually nothing when up against santa ana wind  

LA : 78/53

[spockvr6]

(happ @ Dec. 03 2006,21:10)

QUOTE

It is cold or warm depending on your location and wind.  

LA AIRPORT  :   77 /  45      

MALIBU :   74 /  65

Just across Santa Monica bay maybe 5-6 miles apart.

I can hardly believe that differential on those two locations practically right next to each other!

[spockvr6]

Its been a beautiful start to December so far.

Day/Month/High/Low

1 December 80.4 71.1

2 December                79.0 68.4

3 December                83.1 69.4

But, we are forecast for an approximate 10F drop in temps early this coming week.

[BobbyinNY]

cold as hell here.....

48/30 tonight

45/29 tomorrow

[BobbyinNY]

By the way, how are your outdoor palms doing.  Are the heating systems doing the trick.  Of course you probably haven't had any extreme cold yet.

Everything, so far is doing great, Jim..... P. Elegans just opened up a new spear in the ground, and my Roebelleni & Chamaerops Humilus both look better than ever.

Ironically,  the only palm that's not doing well right now is My Trachy.... I think it caught some type of disease because one of the fronds started curling up and the center spear pulled right out.. can't figure out why but the soil around the palm seemed a little soft.... Maybe I kept it too warm, who knows.

[galveston1602]

what I want to know is how larry got the screenshot of that map...

Ive been doing alot of research about palms in texas.  and I dont believe that theres a better place to be than galveston outside of possibly South Padre.  

yeah, we'll eventually get killed by the "big" one but, as best as I can tell everywhere in texas will get killed by the same "big" one as evidenced by larrys posting of the lows across Texas.

on topic here for a sec...

since that bitter cold Friday morning its been pretty decent around here looks like we should still stay above 40 for at least 7 more days

[happ]

galveston1602

Models are trending warm for much of the nation beyond this week.  Seattle is back to rain instead of snow.  Getting active in the Pacific.  Kona low steering subtropical jet towards California.  Hope hope . . .  

[NBTX11]

(galveston1602 @ Dec. 04 2006,00:57)

QUOTE

Ive been doing alot of research about palms in texas.  and I dont believe that theres a better place to be than galveston outside of possibly South Padre.  

Well.....not sure about this statement.  In my humble opionion, the ENTIRE RGV is better for palms than Galveston, and possibly coastal Corpus Christi too.  Galveston is great for palms, no doubt.  But the reason I say this is beacause even though Galveston has very mild winter time lows (around 50F to the lows 50sF on average) that is nearly identical to the valley.  The valley's winter time high temperatures are MUCH higher than Galveston.  Average Jan high in the valley is around 70F, where as Galveston it's in the low 60s.  That's a significant difference.  I also think Galveston is more susceptible during the "big one" due to it's much northerly latitude - there is a greater chance a front would stall out or weaken before going all the way through the valley.  Take this last cold snap for example.  Galveston dropped to 35.  Brownsville dropped to 40, and SPI probably only dropped to 42 or 43F.  Thats a 5-8 degree difference, which would be very significant if the cold front had produced 10 degree colder temps.  Just my 2 cents.  In know Galveston is a very palmy location.  How many Cocos are popping up on Galveston.  Can they be grown at all there.  Because they are popping up in the valley with some good sized ones growing currently.

[SunnyFl]

(spockvr6 @ Dec. 03 2006,21:38)

QUOTE

Its been a beautiful start to December so far.

Day/Month/High/Low

1 December 80.4 71.1

2 December                79.0 68.4

3 December                83.1 69.4

But, we are forecast for an approximate 10F drop in temps early this coming week.

It's getting worse, Larry, the forecast is deteriorating

Yesterday, listening to NOAA and it was predicting lows Fri. night in the 40's.  Today it said Fri. night's low is supposed to be in the mid-30's (ugh) and no mention of "warmer near the coast."  Who knows what they'll predict for Fri. overnight as the week progresses.

If this forecast gets any worse, I may have a huge container ranch in my living room & foyer arrrrrgh.

(BobbyinNY @ Dec. 03 2006,23:23)

QUOTE

P. Elegans just opened up a new spear in the ground

 

What is the lowest your elegans has taken without protection?

[SunnyFl]

(happ @ Dec. 03 2006,21:10)

QUOTE

single digit humidity/below 0 dewpoints     The wind in Ventura/lower Santa Clarita valley drove the fire at 50MPH.  Fire departments can do virtually nothing when up against santa ana wind  

Saw the fires on tv last night - looked absolutely horrible.  Any chance they can bring it under control soon - the Santa Anas make a bad situation much, much worse and the single-digit humidity more bad news.

CA just had a catastrophic fire thanks to some lunatic arsonist - now this

Don't know the entire range of this fire - hope it's nowhere near you.

Someone on the board once called those winds the "Satan Annies"  - seems fitting.

[spockvr6]

(SunnyFl @ Dec. 05 2006,07:36)

QUOTE

It's getting worse, Larry, the forecast is deteriorating

Yesterday, listening to NOAA and it was predicting lows Fri. night in the 40's.  Today it said Fri. night's low is supposed to be in the mid-30's (ugh) and no mention of "warmer near the coast."  Who knows what they'll predict for Fri. overnight as the week progresses.

Yes...the end of the week is looking cold!  The forecasts are varying (as usual), so we shall have to wait things out and see.  

This AM was notably colder as well (with a nasty NE wind) and 48F at my house.

[spockvr6]

(galveston1602 @ Dec. 04 2006,00:57)

QUOTE

what I want to know is how larry got the screenshot of that map...

Which map?

One I posted was from the Melbourne, FL NWS office (which showed the temperature gradients across FL).

The other was a screen shot from the "Google Maps" feature of weatherunderground.com.

[spockvr6]

As of 745AM this morning----

The NE winds are keeping the east coast warmer than the west coast and theres a 40F spread from the Panhandle the SE FL.

[spockvr6]

Big cool down this week and more so later in the week......

[Neofolis]

We had another incredibly mild night with a low of 13°C/55°F.  Temperatures are due to drop towards the weekend.  Unbelievably all of my outside plants are growing, albeit extremely slowly, but December is at least 2-3 months after our growing season for anything tropical should have finished.

[amazondk]

I am on a little business trip over in Belem, Para on the mouth of the Amazon.  Our current conditions are as follows:

Currently At 11:35PM  82°F

RealFeel®

87°F

Winds: ENE

at 6mph

Clear

Humidity: 74%

Dew Point: 73° F Pressure: N/A

Visibility: 7 Miles

I don't see anyone out protecting palm trees around here.

dk

[happ]

(amazondk @ Dec. 05 2006,20:35)

QUOTE

I don't see anyone out protecting palm trees around here.

dk

Ok Don, don't rub it in  :laugh:

None of us in northerly latitudes can rest easy for at least 3 more months.  Amazonia sounds wonderful.  

BTW, Larry, those graphics are fantastic.  The temps out over the Atlantic/Gulf measure the air not water temp.  Does fog develop when cold air flows over warm oceans? Coastal low clouds develop when warm air interacts with the cold Pacific.  Ocean temps are already in low 60's in California.

SunnyFl.

Thanks for the concern but I understand the worst of the Ventura Co. fires are over.  Winds have lowered though dewpoints/relative humidity is incredibly low.  Dew points measured 2 degrees aboard naval ships out in San Diego bay this morning [normally the time of day humidity is at its highest].  Day temps are warm but minimums are still cold in areas unaffected by the wind [san Pasqual/Wild Animal Pk - north of San Diego recorded 28/79 today = 51 degree spread      

Super dry air may actually spare plant life due to the lack of frost.  Anybody have an opinion on this?  If it is too dry to perspirate frost does that impact/mitigate damage?   ???

Waiting for the atmosphere to moisten up.  No rain in sight  

LA : 80/53      

[NBTX11]

(spockvr6 @ Dec. 05 2006,08:42)

QUOTE

Big cool down this week and more so later in the week......

No freeze, doesn't look that bad to me.

[amazondk]

Happ,

I just could not resist.  Good luck to everyone.

dk

[SunnyFl]

(syersj @ Dec. 06 2006,00:43)

QUOTE

No freeze, doesn't look that bad to me.

No, there's no freeze, but when it starts dipping into the low 40's, we get nervous - so many of things we plant won't take frosts or freezing temps, and some aren't too wild about the 40's either.  But when they're predicting upper 40s by week's end, then by Tues. the forecast for week's end changes to low 40's - ya gotta wonder if the forecast will deteriorate further.

If we get a frost, I'll lose everything in my front yard, except maybe the hibs.  

(spockvr6 @ Dec. 05 2006,08:21)

QUOTE

Yes...the end of the week is looking cold!  The forecasts are varying (as usual), so we shall have to wait things out and see.

True, the forecasts are up and down.  Later that morning, the NOAA station had backed off the mid-30s, what a relief.  But sheesh - our high on Friday is only 59!  Yucko - glad my Friday chores are inside (gotta paint the stupid walls, ugh).

Oddly, it's Dec. and my ixora's still blooming and the golden cane is still pushing out new fronds.  Plus, I was hoping to plant at least one of my morrisiis this weekend - so I want those weekend temps to warm up!

Larry, thanks for posting the colored NOAA map.  I see we're still in the mid-green (50-52) - but parts of Polk are higher, around 54.  Hm.

[spockvr6]

(SunnyFl @ Dec. 06 2006,06:36)

QUOTE

Larry, thanks for posting the colored NOAA map.  I see we're still in the mid-green (50-52) - but parts of Polk are higher, around 54.  Hm.

Winds were from the NE when that "snapshot" was taken.  Thus, the Gulf was providing little benefit on the West coast and the Atlantic was sharing a little heat with the East coast.

[spockvr6]

(SunnyFl @ Dec. 06 2006,06:36)

QUOTE

Oddly, it's Dec. and my ixora's still blooming and the golden cane is still pushing out new fronds.  Plus, I was hoping to plant at least one of my morrisiis this weekend - so I want those weekend temps to warm up!

My largest Royal started to pop a new frond yesterday as well

I have noted that lots of stuff still grows right through the winter....just more slowly.

[spockvr6]

(syersj @ Dec. 06 2006,00:43)

QUOTE

No freeze, doesn't look that bad to me.

Yes...thats the bottom line isnt it?

The only catch is that, when the air is humid, even temps in the upper 30's can create some frost when the air is still.  This is what I worry about (and what Sunny eluded to above) when I see temps forecast in the lower 40's.  If they are "off" a bit on the forecast, we can get a surprise!

I had frost twice in my yard last winter even though the winter was quite mild, and almost a 10b winter (one night was 34F, another 37F and the rest above 40F).  This is phenomenal for my exact spot on the map.

In the 6 years I lived here, I think Ive seen frost 3-4 times, and 2 of them were last winter....yet it was a mild winter temp wise.  This is leading me to believe that some winds, even if the air temp is a few degrees colder, is better for my spot.

[BobbyinNY]

What is the lowest your elegans has taken without protection?

Sunny, it's gone down to 38f without any protection, but I'm a wimp and usually keep it in the high 40's to around 50 at night now.

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Dec. 06 2006,09:03)

QUOTE

What is the lowest your elegans has taken without protection?

Sunny, it's gone down to 38f without any protection, but I'm a wimp and usually keep it in the high 40's to around 50 at night now.

As long as theres no frost on the leaves, 38F wont harm that palm.  

Of course, keeping it around 50F will be preferable  

[BobbyinNY]

It got really cold here the past couple days. Only around 42f for a high and this morning at 6:00am it was 26f in my backyard.. Coldest day of the year, but we're supposed to moderate another 10f by the weekend.

[NBTX11]

(spockvr6 @ Dec. 06 2006,09:02)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Dec. 06 2006,00:43)

QUOTE

No freeze, doesn't look that bad to me.

Yes...thats the bottom line isnt it?

The only catch is that, when the air is humid, even temps in the upper 30's can create some frost when the air is still.  This is what I worry about (and what Sunny eluded to above) when I see temps forecast in the lower 40's.  If they are "off" a bit on the forecast, we can get a surprise!

I had frost twice in my yard last winter even though the winter was quite mild, and almost a 10b winter (one night was 34F, another 37F and the rest above 40F).  This is phenomenal for my exact spot on the map.

In the 6 years I lived here, I think Ive seen frost 3-4 times, and 2 of them were last winter....yet it was a mild winter temp wise.  This is leading me to believe that some winds, even if the air temp is a few degrees colder, is better for my spot.

34F and a light frost won't do nearly the damage as 26 and a deep freeze.  We get 1-2 deep freezes (24-26F) and 6-10 light freezes (28-32F) during an average winter.  That is why my yard is planted with cold hardy palms, although next year I am going to push my luck and plant some truly marginal stuff.  Do you have any ideas for palms that are marginally hardy to around 24-25F that I can expiriment with.  I was thinking of planting some king palms.

[spockvr6]

(syersj @ Dec. 06 2006,10:51)

QUOTE

34F and a light frost won't do nearly the damage as 26 and a deep freeze.  

Oh no!  

I didnt mean to imply that severe of a differential, only one of perhaps a few degrees either side of the freezing mark.

Something like 30F with a gentle wind might allow many tender palms to fare better than 34-35F with calm air and frost.

[spockvr6]

(syersj @ Dec. 06 2006,10:51)

QUOTE

 Do you have any ideas for palms that are marginally hardy to around 24-25F that I can expiriment with.  I was thinking of planting some king palms.

Thats probably a decent candidate, provided you keep the frost off.  

Any amount of frost seems to damage Archontophoenix regardless of temperature.

I cant comment on absolute cold hardiness yet as nothing in my yard has seen 26F yet...and I hope doesnt for quite some time (never would be OK too)

[BobbyinNY]

I cant comment on absolute cold hardiness yet as nothing in my yard has seen 26F yet...and I hope doesnt for quite some time (never would be OK too)  

Yeah, I can say.... 26f is frigging cold - even for here.... I went out there this morning and it was 26f.  I'm hoping we don't drop much below that this winter, but when Late January/Early Feb comes around anything can happen... We usually get those few nights of teens in Early February....

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Dec. 06 2006,11:33)

QUOTE

Yeah, I can say.... 26f is frigging cold - even for here....

Wimp!

Oh...I recall the days of walking to school in 4 ft of snow with temps below 0 with winds howling.......

It was uphill both ways too.

[NBTX11]

(spockvr6 @ Dec. 06 2006,11:27)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Dec. 06 2006,10:51)

QUOTE

 Do you have any ideas for palms that are marginally hardy to around 24-25F that I can expiriment with.  I was thinking of planting some king palms.

Thats probably a decent candidate, provided you keep the frost off.  

Any amount of frost seems to damage Archontophoenix regardless of temperature.

I cant comment on absolute cold hardiness yet as nothing in my yard has seen 26F yet...and I hope doesnt for quite some time (never would be OK too)

Good advice, I would have to wrap it with some type of protection numerous times during the winter.  I wonder if you could just wrap it in December, and just leave it wrapped until Feb or so.

[gsn]

Pretty much a newbie here,but some of my observations,at least in central floridas climate are...

It seems that some palms(foxtails royals,cayota,adonias,dypsis lutesens, veitchi sp, and probably many more),are much more suseptable to frost damage than actual cold temps,to a point!

Naturally 24- 26 F degress is worse for most plams than a marginal freeze of say 30 to 32F degrees.

And as Larry said,we can get frost here(humidity, no wind)  in the mid to high 30's F. While at say 33-38F and NO frost,  most palms wouldn't show any damage at all. Where as 24 -26 F might actually kill the palm! So there is a point where cold temps are worse that higher temps with FROST! Maybe the frost damage is only cosmetic to the leaves, and not damaging to crown shaft, or growing point, but it still takes a long time for most palms that don't like frost to look decent again!

I guess that is why us florida guys start getting nervous about a forecast under 40 degrees!

[Neofolis]

Frost hardy and cold hardy are not the same.  Some species are more frost hardy, while others are more cold hardy.

[BobbyinNY]

Wimp!

Oh...I recall the days of walking to school in 4 ft of snow with temps below 0 with winds howling.......

It was uphill both ways too

OH MY GOD!!!.... I couldn't imagine that much snow.. and 0f...yikes..... I think we might've gotten that cold once, but I can't remember...... I think it was years ago before my time ... Uh oh ..... I hope I didn't just create an omen.

[NBTX11]

(Neofolis @ Dec. 06 2006,13:22)

QUOTE

Frost hardy and cold hardy are not the same.  Some species are more frost hardy, while others are more cold hardy.

In my area, they have to be frost AND cold hardy to plant.

[amazondk]

Bobby,

I will keep my A/C settings really cold so I can feel in sync.

dk

[Steve]

The forcast looks bleak for Atlanta.  We already had a low temp of 28F earlier this week.  Weather.com is predicting overnight lows of 21F for my part of town tomorrow night, and 23F on Friday night.  The low for all of last year was 24F.  That was rare though.  On Friday the wind chill could get into the single digits.  How much of an effect does wind chill have on palms.  I have a t. fortunei outside.  I'll probably cover the base of the tree with a blanket, and wrap a towel around the spear with some aluminum foil over that to be safe.  But I'd be interested to hear any insight you all may have.

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Dec. 06 2006,13:25)

QUOTE

Wimp!

Oh...I recall the days of walking to school in 4 ft of snow with temps below 0 with winds howling.......

It was uphill both ways too

OH MY GOD!!!.... I couldn't imagine that much snow.. and 0f...yikes..... I think we might've gotten that cold once, but I can't remember...... I think it was years ago before my time ... Uh oh ..... I hope I didn't just create an omen.

HA!

0F would not be a cold morning in many parts of Maine (and the USA for that matter).

Where I grew up it was Zone 4, maybe 5.  

In the upper parts of Maine bordering Canada, it is more like Zone 3.