Archontophoenix cunninghamiana growing around 1000 m in NSW

[VA Jeff]

As I mentioned in the Silver Queen post previously, there are official reports of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana growing around 1100 m in New South Wales in the mountains West of Grafton. The website that maps out these sitings is maintained by state government.

http://wildlifeatlas.nationalparks.nsw.gov...tlas/watlas.jsp

Unfortunately, the website has not been working for me recently when it comes down to actually mapping the spots to within 100 m like it is supposed to. (This website also depicts animals and other flora sightings as well, including ficus, linospadix, and calamus species.) When the mapping function is working, you can depict the elevation and the major roads to identify where the sightings are.

Anyway, 4 years ago I discovered this website and found multiple archontophoenix sightings around 1000 meters or above in the mountains of NSW. A website for one of the major parks where many of the sightings were located mentioned that the temperature had fallen to -8 C at the lower elevations in the last few years. I looked up the Australian Bureau of Meteorology statistics for the nearest locations, and threw in some other spots where king palms are known to grow. Here are the statistics:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

Click NSW & ACT

move to desired city.

View all available

Site name: GLEN INNES POST OFFICE Site number: 056011

Latitude: 29.74° S Longitude: 151.74° E Elevation: 1062 m

Minimum temperature

Mean minimum temperature (°C)

13.3 13.2 11.5 7.8 4.5 1.9 0.6 1.3 4.0 7.2 9.7 12.1

Lowest temperature (°C)

2.8 3.3 0.4 -1.9 -5.0 -8.3 -9.4 -8.4 -4.4 -2.2 0.0 3.4

Decile 1 minimum temperature (°C)

10.8 11.0 8.8 4.3 0.0 -2.5 -3.9 -2.6 0.0 3.3 6.0 8.9

Decile 9 minimum temperature (°C)

17.0 17.0 15.0 12.5 10.0 7.4 6.0 6.3 9.1 11.9 14.0 16.0

Mean number of days ≤ 2 °C

0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 7.3 14.8 18.8 17.3 7.9 1.6 0.3 0.0

Mean number of days ≤ 0 °C

0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 3.7 9.3 13.3 11.1 3.3 0.4 0.1 0.0

In general, Urbenville is below 400 m elevation. Kings are known to grow here in the tablelands west of the mountains near Queensland.

Site name: URBENVILLE STATE FOREST Site number: 057021

Latitude: 28.47° S Longitude: 152.55° E

Elevation: 366 m

Minimum temperature

Mean minimum temperature (°C)

15.0 15.4 14.0 11.0 6.0 4.2 2.6 3.5 5.9 9.1 12.2 14.1

Lowest temperature (°C)

8.3 5.6 4.4 0.6 -5.0 -6.1 -6.3 -7.2 -2.8 -2.2 2.2 5.0 Mean number of days ≤ 2 °C

0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 5.9 7.8 11.0 9.9 3.3 1.0 0.0 0.0

Mean number of days ≤ 0 °C

0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.2 5.0 8.6 6.8 1.1 0.5 0.0 0.0

Site name: GLEN INNES (MT MITCHELL FOREST)

Site number: 057082

Latitude: 29.65 °S Longitude: 152.09 °E

Elevation: 970 m

Mean minimum temperature (°C)

13.5 13.6 11.9 8.2 4.3 2.2 -0.5 1.4 3.5 7.6 9.2 12.0

Now that I presented historical climate statistics, it is open for debate whether sights located on a slope may be warmer or colder than recordings in valleys or on tablelands. On a side note, although the mapping function doesn't work on the NSW Wildlife Atlas website, it does say that 4 archontophoenix sightings are reported in the Tenterfield district, which has seen as low as -9.3 C.

If you use the street view feature of Google Maps and spend considerable time carefully looking at the roadside, you can spot king palms in the wetter spots along route 38 Gwydir highway going through Gibralter Range Park west of Grafton. I was able to spot some kings at 820 m elevation, but did not spend long enough to find them higher up, although I can promise that it is more difficult to spot them the higher you go. This is the same area where thay have been spotted above 1100 m. Since street view does not cover more remote spots, you cannot see whether kings grow along a creek around 1000 m or away from the road on the flatter areas near there. Somebody exploring in the area in person could perhaps find a king in one of these spots that indisputably would reach -9 C or lower every 30 years or so.

Anyway, now to a photo from Google Maps.

Gwydir Hwy (Route 38) in Gibralter Range National Park 820 m elevation

Archontophoenix near middle above ferns. Right next to highway, partial overhead canopy on descending slope.

Link to photo:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=-29...369517169969223

When I looked at the sky from where the sightings were at, partial canopy right next to a road allows for the temps to drop quite a bit. I am not taking anything away from the Urbenville kings, who have seen -7.2 C indisputably, supposedly without canopy. I would suggest that anyone with an interest in finding hardy palms or ficus macrophylla in New South Wales that can actually go there in person could look up the NSW Wildlife Atlas to find possibly hardier palm sightings. I am wondering if the website is no longer viewable outside Australia, or some other computer related issue. I tried accessing the maps by 3 different computers this week, with no luck.

Edited January 12, 2009 by VA Jeff

[Pivi]

This is a great news Jeff!

I wish i could get some seeds from there.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Pivi

[DoomsDave]

This is a great news Jeff!

I wish i could get some seeds from there.

How are the seeds I sent you doing? Any sprouted yet?

Want some more?

(Might be a bybrid between alex and cun. Maybe . .. .)

[Pivi]

Hi Dave!

They're doing great. No need for more

They have 2-3 leaves now. Everything is still so small.

I'll put pictures when they grow a little in about 6 months

But these from high altitudes from Australia would be great because of their hardiness.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Pivi

[Jim in Los Altos]

That's good news. Hopefully they're more cold hardy than A. cunn. 'Illawara' which are real wimps in my yard compared to regular cunninghamiana when it comes to frost. Nearly all of my 30+ Illawaras in the ground have freeze damage from last week's 30F with frost. All my regular cunninghamiana are free of any damage what so ever. On the plus side, the Illawaras grow like weeds during the growing season and any winter damage is soon outgrown.

[Bennz]

VA Jeff,

The other two locations I know of where bangalows grow at 1100m is Bar Mountain on Border Ranges (NSW/QLD border) and further north and further inland at Bunya Mountains. Both of these sites are likely to be colder than Illawarra occurences due to elevation, but both are in frost-drainage sites, and under rainforest canopy. Both sites get occaisonaly snowfalls. I looked at them on Gibraltar Range, but didn't find the higher populations.

I'm a little sceptical about the Glenn Innes sightings, I have friends there and at Dorrigo who don't know of bangalows in the area. They are not palm people though, so could easily just not know about them. But once you get away from that cold air drainage of the mountain side the temps drop a lot on those frosty nights. If there really are bangalow populations up there they should be the best bet. Bangalows frequently occur in the wettest parts of the landscape, which also tend to be the lowest points,... and therefore often the coldest places.

The Urbenville myth was partly inadvertently created by me. My brother-in-law is the dude who collects the daily temps for BoM there, and I've spent time in the area. I'm certainly not suggesting this is the coldest place these palms grow, merely that this is a place where these palms grow that gets cold, but is also very hot. This was originally only meant to suggest this kind of area would be a more logical seed collection place for people in hot but occaisonally frosty areas (like Northern Florida) than would the Illawarra region which is a lot cooler, but usually totally frost free (and perhaps better suited to growers in San Francisco, New Zealand, etc).

When I see icicles still hanging form 2nd storey balcony at 10.00am at my sister/brother-in-laws place at Urbenville with bangalow palms outside looking ok, I take notice!

[VA Jeff]

Hello Pivi,

No source for seeds at the moment. I may have to wait a few years til I can go there myself. I've hunted for Roystonea native populations in Florida, but at the wrong time of year to collect viable seeds.

I would be interested if someone could access the mapping feature of the NSW Wildlife Atlas to see about colder places, such as Tenterfield, or more precise sighting information on the tableland (mesa) on the southwest end of the Gibralter Range park. I am hoping the site works again for me someday, so I could do a more thorough search.

Hey Bennz,

I can understand if you have some healthy skepticism about actual temps seen by the high altitude palms. Even with photo evidence, slopes, canopy, and orientations to bodies of water do affect microclimates. I still believe that the Gibralter Range holds great promise. After all, a close site with similar elevation has an average low in July of -0.5 C! About Glenn Innes, the palm sightings I know of and were able to spot with Google photos are actually about 40 miles from Glenn Innes as the crow flies. (Or maybe they don't have crows in Australia?)

Didn't you say a couple years ago that the Urbenville bangalows can sustain ice forming on them without suffering damage to the leaves?

[VA Jeff]

I finally got the mapping function to work on the New South Wales Wildlife website.

This map shows all documented archontophoenix cunninghamiana sightings in the database in New South Wales.

This is the Google Map photo of kings at 820 m elevation in Gibralter Range park.

This is a closeup of several archnotophoenix sightings.

This map shows linospadix monostachya, archontophoenix, and ficus macrophylla in the same vicinity at high elevation.

[kristof p]

very interesting.

Site name: GLEN INNES POST OFFICE Site number: 056011

Latitude: 29.74° S Longitude: 151.74° E Elevation: 1062 m

Minimum temperature

Mean minimum temperature (°C)

13.3 13.2 11.5 7.8 4.5 1.9 0.6 1.3 4.0 7.2 9.7 12.1

Lowest temperature (°C)

2.8 3.3 0.4 -1.9 -5.0 -8.3 -9.4 -8.4 -4.4 -2.2 0.0 3.4

Decile 1 minimum temperature (°C)

10.8 11.0 8.8 4.3 0.0 -2.5 -3.9 -2.6 0.0 3.3 6.0 8.9

Decile 9 minimum temperature (°C)

17.0 17.0 15.0 12.5 10.0 7.4 6.0 6.3 9.1 11.9 14.0 16.0

Mean number of days ≤ 2 °C

0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 7.3 14.8 18.8 17.3 7.9 1.6 0.3 0.0

Mean number of days ≤ 0 °C

0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 3.7 9.3 13.3 11.1 3.3 0.4 0.1 0.0

this place is colder than me....are those the absolute lows? even then i'm still warmer. even with this severe wintercold we have had for two weeks i did not drop below -8.5°C on the coldest night. it would be interesting to see how an ofspring of one of those population grows in my climate in a forest like envirement...

sounds like a realy good canditate for parts of Ireland, the UK and Brittany and maybe even for me?

[Pivi]

it should be tried.

But gave one thing in mind: absolute minimum is not the only thing that should be considered.

I think that temperatured that for days don't go above 0°C (i don't know if you had temperatures like that this winter) would also (in my opinion) kill this palm.

It's not the same minimum temperature for few hours or tempereatures that don't go over 0°C for days.

[Bennz]

very interesting.

Site name: GLEN INNES POST OFFICE Site number: 056011

Latitude: 29.74° S Longitude: 151.74° E Elevation: 1062 m

Minimum temperature

Mean minimum temperature (°C)

13.3 13.2 11.5 7.8 4.5 1.9 0.6 1.3 4.0 7.2 9.7 12.1

Lowest temperature (°C)

2.8 3.3 0.4 -1.9 -5.0 -8.3 -9.4 -8.4 -4.4 -2.2 0.0 3.4

this place is colder than me....are those the absolute lows? even then i'm still warmer. even with this severe wintercold we have had for two weeks i did not drop below -8.5°C on the coldest night. it would be interesting to see how an ofspring of one of those population grows in my climate in a forest like envirement...

sounds like a realy good canditate for parts of Ireland, the UK and Brittany and maybe even for me?

Wait a minute, look at the climate stats again and tell me you still think it is colder than your place;

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tab...cw_056011.shtml

Now consider the fact that Glenn Innes is TOO COLD to grow bangalow palms! I know its tempting to look at this stuff and get enthusiastic, but reality is still that this is a cool-tolerant warm temperate palm (that extends into the subtropics in the hottest part of its range) suited to oceanic mild temperatures. It can be grown in protected parts of UK as an extreme indication of its cool tolerance, but it is NOT going to be suited to anywhere that ever gets continental cold conditions unless the grower is prepared to put in major protection measures. I know it has survived -8C in parts of Australia and NZ, but we're talking about that temp for very short duration, and probably only a few hours at most below 0C.

Looking at the topography on Jeffs maps, I still think these high altitude sites are all in areas with good air drainage. That road up the Gibraltar Range is very steep, not much chance of frost settling. Then add in the fact that this is steep hillside 1000m high not far from the Pacific Ocean... think air movement... Not much chance of frost. Good place for cool-tolerance selection though.

Incidentally, I collect seeds at 1100m above Murwillumbah, and planted them with lowland seedlings at 80m elevation at in-laws house about 20kms away. The plants look identical, same growth rate, no obvious difference at all. There is a strong possibility that these high altitude, southern (Illawarra), and subtropical sites merely represent the extreme habitat tolerances of the species, and are not actually indicative of differeing performances between provenances.

[VA Jeff]

Let me quote Cycad Center from Jn 15, 2007 in the freeze damage section of PalmTalk.

"Fallbrook

Lower level of property 15-16 (F) degrees 2 nights

We had about 40 in 5 gal. containers in a shade house.

Very interesting 35 are brown mush the other 5, not a sign of any damage. These were seeds from Montgomery so I wonder what was nearby that these five were crossed with. They're in the keeper pile now. "

Bennz,

Would you agree that some kings can take several hours of -8 C without major damage? That is near what the Urbenville kings have taken, right? If you look at the map of archontophoenix sightings in all of NSW, nearly all are near the coast, probably partially due to rainfall patterns.

http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/climate_aver...=an&area=ns

You can see from the rainfall map that there is a sparsity of sightings in coastal areas with less than 1200 mm annual precipitation, even when it is warm enough. Very little of the parts of NSW receiving sufficient rainfall are at colder elevations. In fact, if you do a laborious search of street view in Google Maps, you only see the kings where the other vegetation is greener, even if a less lush area is at a lower altitude. I think it is not just a temperature effect. The higher elevation sightings in Gibralter range are 130 km from the coast.

If Cycad Center's observation is accurate, and not a microclimate effect, then a small percentage of kings may have more hardiness. If you think about it, for most plant species, seeds are collected in the more populous areas which tend to be near coasts, so plants in cultivation would tend to have less hardiness than colder provenances. Now I don't believe anyone will ever find a zone 9 loving coconut, but if I can get to Australia in the next 10 years, I'm definitely going seed hunting around Gibralter Range because I do believe they will be hardier than the coastal populations.

From a park website about neighboring Washpool park to the north: "The climate of Washpool National Park is influenced by its location on the edge of the Great Escarpment. Winters are usually dry and cold, with frosty nights that can drop to -8 C. "

[Bennz]

If you think about it, for most plant species, seeds are collected in the more populous areas which tend to be near coasts, so plants in cultivation would tend to have less hardiness than colder provenances. Now I don't believe anyone will ever find a zone 9 loving coconut, but if I can get to Australia in the next 10 years, I'm definitely going seed hunting around Gibralter Range because I do believe they will be hardier than the coastal populations.

From a park website about neighboring Washpool park to the north: "The climate of Washpool National Park is influenced by its location on the edge of the Great Escarpment. Winters are usually dry and cold, with frosty nights that can drop to -8 C. "

Hi Jeff,

I have often wondered about this with US bangalow palms. It seems likely that they might have been collected from nearby a most populated sea port way back. Sydney has always been the most important port on the Pacific. It therefore seems likley to me that most of the California bangalows may in fact be from the Illawarra area, or close to it. Then as you say, maybe someone collected some other populations with different cold tolerance, along the lines Jim in Los Altos has already mentioned.

Interesting coment about the rainfall, very true. Not only are they in the above 1200mm areas, they also tend to be in wet micro-climates, gullys etc with additional run-on. I have often felt my trees here grow faster in winter (more moisture) than summer, but I have never actually measured this.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just realistic. I'm certainly no expert, just another guy in a cool climate who has looked for palms in habitat.

Regarding damage, all I am actually saying is that the Urbenville population has survived -8C. I don't know how much damage was suffered, I saw them about 6 months later. No damage then. There were heaps of dead A. alexandraes around the NNSW area, distinctive from the swollen base (beatricea form). This was about 1993 or thereabouts. My bro-in-law says it is cold enough to freeze the water in his pipes almost every year, and I'v e seen populaitons since that woiuld have experienced very low temps every year.

If you find these cold tolerant palms, it would be great for the palm growing population of the world. Good luck.

15F is cold. Can you get seeds from this same source?

[kristof p]

very interesting.

Site name: GLEN INNES POST OFFICE Site number: 056011

Latitude: 29.74° S Longitude: 151.74° E Elevation: 1062 m

Minimum temperature

Mean minimum temperature (°C)

13.3 13.2 11.5 7.8 4.5 1.9 0.6 1.3 4.0 7.2 9.7 12.1

Lowest temperature (°C)

2.8 3.3 0.4 -1.9 -5.0 -8.3 -9.4 -8.4 -4.4 -2.2 0.0 3.4

this place is colder than me....are those the absolute lows? even then i'm still warmer. even with this severe wintercold we have had for two weeks i did not drop below -8.5°C on the coldest night. it would be interesting to see how an ofspring of one of those population grows in my climate in a forest like envirement...

sounds like a realy good canditate for parts of Ireland, the UK and Brittany and maybe even for me?

Wait a minute, look at the climate stats again and tell me you still think it is colder than your place;

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tab...cw_056011.shtml

Now consider the fact that Glenn Innes is TOO COLD to grow bangalow palms! I know its tempting to look at this stuff and get enthusiastic, but reality is still that this is a cool-tolerant warm temperate palm (that extends into the subtropics in the hottest part of its range) suited to oceanic mild temperatures. It can be grown in protected parts of UK as an extreme indication of its cool tolerance, but it is NOT going to be suited to anywhere that ever gets continental cold conditions unless the grower is prepared to put in major protection measures. I know it has survived -8C in parts of Australia and NZ, but we're talking about that temp for very short duration, and probably only a few hours at most below 0C.

Looking at the topography on Jeffs maps, I still think these high altitude sites are all in areas with good air drainage. That road up the Gibraltar Range is very steep, not much chance of frost settling. Then add in the fact that this is steep hillside 1000m high not far from the Pacific Ocean... think air movement... Not much chance of frost. Good place for cool-tolerance selection though.

Incidentally, I collect seeds at 1100m above Murwillumbah, and planted them with lowland seedlings at 80m elevation at in-laws house about 20kms away. The plants look identical, same growth rate, no obvious difference at all. There is a strong possibility that these high altitude, southern (Illawarra), and subtropical sites merely represent the extreme habitat tolerances of the species, and are not actually indicative of differeing performances between provenances.

Hi benzz,

yes, i know that i can not compare my climate (at 51°N) with GLEN INNES POST OFFICE at 29°S, the daytime temperatures are higher during winter but what interesting is that my average minimum temperatures are higher during winter. (average maximum temps here in a normal winter are around +7°C). in a normal winter we have about 1 day that temps dont rise above 0°C, the last ten years we never had an iceday and most freezes were between 0°C and -3°C with a occasional drop to -5/-6 for a short time (except ofcourse this very cold winter). -5/-6 is pretty deadly for Archontophoenix, i know this but who knows it is possible to grow one of those high altidude Archontophoenix in my climate with some protection during the coldest nights? they would definitely need overhead protection because i think -2 or -3 would damage the foliage when grown in the open. i have an Archontophoenix alexandrae in the garden but this one is kept frost free during winter by a temperory greenhouse. it would be great if i could grow one with just some protective fleece and some lights on the ground to prevent the roots from freezing wich i think is deadly for such species. i'm not sure but if Archontophoenix was a species that tolerates drought, like Butia sp, maybe i could grow them without much trouble. Butia's grow in a warmer climate than those high altitude Archontophoenix...i think all the palms we can grow here have a good drought tolerance because most of the times during winter the soil is to cold for activity so they can not drink much...

[Pivi]

Kristof, but there are no data for maximum temperatures for that place in queensland.

Maximum temperature during winter lasts for few minutes... What is your average minimum temperature? That's what's important.

> Mean minimum temperature <

What's is your average minimum temperature in coldest month (january?)?

And coldest month in AU is July.

Butia capitata is much much hardier palm than archontophoenix. It's hardier than phoenix canariensis i think.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Pivi

[kristof p]

Pivi, it is because my average minimum temperature is higher i find this very interesting! it is not much higher, in a average winter my averave minimum temperature for januari is +2°C...but the last ten years we have no averave winters anymore but much milder ones (except ofcourse this "once in 20y winter")

yes, Butia is much harder but comes from a warmer climate...

Edited January 13, 2009 by kristof p

[Pivi]

you know your temeperature data.

But this palm should defenitly be tried. But it will be almost impossible to obtain seeds.

[Alberto]

This topic is very interesting for me. I always seek for cold provenance.

I think this bangalows will grow better in climates like mine. At least i hope so!!!

I have some ´´regular´´ bangalows and some from Buringbar (NSW) near the ocean and also 11 seedlings of a banga from Urbenville. They were finally planted out two weeks ago in the shade of some young canopy trees. (I cut an old primay tree,a vassoureira, with an a rotting trunk) Now they can grow near a big Araucaria angustifolia.

I don´t hope for an´´old time winter´´ to see if my Urby´s are frost hardiers,but.... if it will happen ,like Europe´s winter now....I´ll see the difference in hardiness of 3 different provenaces.

A shot of one of my Urbenville bangalows:

[Alberto]

yes, Butia is much harder but comes from a warmer climate...

That´s not true! Butia capitata and specially B.eriospatha come both from a much colder climate than P.canariensis!!!!

[kristof p]

Alberto,

i mean they come from a warmer climate than those "high altidude" Archontophoenix.

B. odorate for example grows along the coast which i think is year round much warmer but it can take my freezing temperatures without problems...

this is the climate date for Sao Joaquim, i understand this is one of the coldest places in Brazil?

http://tempoagora.uol.com.br/previsaodot…/SaoJoaquim-SC/

[Alberto]

Butia capitata is much much hardier palm than archontophoenix. It's hardier than phoenix canariensis i think.

Kristoff,i thought you was replying this statement of Pivi....

Yes I understand!

[M@ximus]

This topic is very interesting for me. I always seek for cold provenance.

I think this bangalows will grow better in climates like mine. At least i hope so!!!

I have some ´´regular´´ bangalows and some from Buringbar (NSW) near the ocean and also 11 seedlings of a banga from Urbenville. They were finally planted out two weeks ago in the shade of some young canopy trees. (I cut an old primay tree,a vassoureira, with an a rotting trunk) Now they can grow near a big Araucaria angustifolia.

I don´t hope for an´´old time winter´´ to see if my Urby´s are frost hardiers,but.... if it will happen ,like Europe´s winter now....I´ll see the difference in hardiness of 3 different provenaces.

A shot of one of my Urbenville bangalows:

Alberto, I have one bangalow a little bit bigger than yours. I put it in the ground 2 years ago ( was 3/4 leaves palm)

the first winter out was milld , and never drop below zero. But last winter was really cold, with temperature that fall to -7c two times(Dicember and early February) and several time 2/3 c below zero. The palm is under a Pinus Pinea canopy!!

The Archontophoenix alexandrae was fried immediately when temperature drop below zero. The Cunninghamiana was untouched!!

I will post a pic soon

My seeds were collected at mt Tamborine QLD/NSW border !!

http://www.lanerealty.com.au/TamborineMt.html http://www.paraglidingearth.com/en-html/index.php?site=6746

Best M@x

[kristof p]

M@X, that is interesting. not only the temperatures that yours has taken without damage but also that your seeds are collected still from a warmer site than some places were A. cuninghamiana is spotted.

[Jonathan]

you know your temeperature data.

But this palm should defenitly be tried. But it will be almost impossible to obtain seeds.

Pivi,

I am hoping to drive up to Cairns this winter (a pretty long trip from Hobart, Tasmania!), and we havn't made any real plans about where we will stop on the way yet (all I know for sure is that most stops will involve palms - don't tell my wife!). One of my main reasons for going is to collect any seed I can from cooler parts of Eastern Australia to try at home, so I will make an effort to check out the areas on this thread and try to get some seed for you guys.

I have been through this area a couple of times before in winter - and generally it feels a lot warmer than my winter here, which is again a lot warmer than NW Europe.....but its worth trying. I think Ben is pretty much on the money with his theory.

Bangalow seeds are usually very easy to find at that time of year - so it shouldn't be too hard to locate some (I hope).

Cheers,

Jonathan

[VA Jeff]

M@X, that is interesting. not only the temperatures that yours has taken without damage but also that your seeds are collected still from a warmer site than some places were A. cuninghamiana is spotted.

Batemans Bay is the furthest south that archontophoenix grows in the wild in Australia. The record low in the last 17 years is -2.9 C.

Woollongong in Illawarra has had a record low of +0.8 C.

I keep hearing that king palms only survive well under canopy. Well, why not grow it under canopy? If it does well down to -7 or -8 C under canopy, then it's better than not growing it at all. I couldn't grow CIDPs without protection, but I've kept 3 for a few years by moderately protecting them in the winter. If I can get kings that are as hardy a CIDP, then I could enjoy a king as well.

[gyuseppe]

i have Archontophoenix cunninghamiana ,without problems up to -4 degrees below zero.

[Pivi]

you know your temeperature data.

But this palm should defenitly be tried. But it will be almost impossible to obtain seeds.

Pivi,

I am hoping to drive up to Cairns this winter (a pretty long trip from Hobart, Tasmania!), and we havn't made any real plans about where we will stop on the way yet (all I know for sure is that most stops will involve palms - don't tell my wife!). One of my main reasons for going is to collect any seed I can from cooler parts of Eastern Australia to try at home, so I will make an effort to check out the areas on this thread and try to get some seed for you guys.

Jonathan

Jonathan that would be great. I keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks

[SouthSeaNate]

I have 4 Archontophoenix cunninghamiana in my garden here on the south coast of the UK. During the recent cold snap my 2 biggest ones (approx 9ft) were badly burnt by frost, but 2 smaller ones which had overhead canopy were untouched. The lowest I recorded was -2C (28F), plus a few nights at or just below 0C (32F), daytime highs got above freezing with the coldest daytime temp being 2C (36F). I believe the only way for them to have long term survival chances in an extreme borderline climate like milder parts of the UK/Ireland is to have overhead protection. In the spring I will be planting a Eucalyptus tree near to my biggest Bangalows so that they will in future winters be protected from radiational freezes.

It would of course be great if seed became available of these higer altitude Bangalows, but it seems unlikely that it will in the immediate future unfortunately...

Pic of Bangalows just before cold snap...

[john_tas]

On 15 January 2009 at 2:51:35 PM, Jonathan said:

 

 

Pivi,

 

I am hoping to drive up to Cairns this winter (a pretty long trip from Hobart, Tasmania!), and we havn't made any real plans about where we will stop on the way yet (all I know for sure is that most stops will involve palms - don't tell my wife!). One of my main reasons for going is to collect any seed I can from cooler parts of Eastern Australia to try at home, so I will make an effort to check out the areas on this thread and try to get some seed for you guys.

 

I have been through this area a couple of times before in winter - and generally it feels a lot warmer than my winter here, which is again a lot warmer than NW Europe.....but its worth trying. I think Ben is pretty much on the money with his theory.

 

Bangalow seeds are usually very easy to find at that time of year - so it shouldn't be too hard to locate some (I hope).

 

Cheers,

 

Jonathan

How did you go with the hunt for mythical hardy Bangalow Johnathan?

Edited August 11, 2016 by john_tas

[KrisKupsch]

Bangalows occur at Eungella at their northern limit (or close to) over 1000m asl and incidentally it's the northern most snow fall in Australia too. 

[john_tas]

5 hours ago, KrisKupsch said:

Bangalows occur at Eungella at their northern limit (or close to) over 1000m asl and incidentally it's the northern most snow fall in Australia too. 

Kris do you believe there are more hardy varieties out there or is it just myth? 

[Tropicgardener]

13 hours ago, KrisKupsch said:

Bangalows occur at Eungella at their northern limit (or close to) over 1000m asl and incidentally it's the northern most snow fall in Australia too. 

But we must also state that snowfalls in that area have been extremely rare and isolated and doesn't settle on the ground........... For those who don't know Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is intermingled with Archontophoenix alexandrae in the rainforest at Eungella.

 

[john_tas]

25 minutes ago, Tropicgardener said:

But we must also state that snowfalls in that area have been extremely rare and isolated and doesn't settle on the ground........... For those who don't know Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is intermingled with Archontophoenix alexandrae in the rainforest at Eungella.

 

Can't be that cold at all if those two species are found together 

[KrisKupsch]

and ?!

[Tropicgardener]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016‎ ‎8‎:‎47‎:‎19‎, john_tas said:

Can't be that cold at all if those two species are found together 

Not a heap of difference in their cold tolerance.

[john_tas]

3 hours ago, Tropicgardener said:

Not a heap of difference in their cold tolerance.

Thought cunninghaniana was a degree or two hardier than alexandrae and that both suffered defoliation after a short exposure to near or under zero temps. Haven't tried either but hard to imagine they would survive long below zero in habitat unless under heavy canopy. That far north the ground probably holds a fair bit of residual heat from the day which prevents snow from settling. 

Question is are there any hardier populations of either species out there or just the standard plants in natural microclimates giving the impression of hardiness when compared with local weather stations located in less favourable positions?

Given the popularity of these species, I suspect that if hardier varieties were out there they would already have been found. Could be a fun hunt for someone anyway.

[Ben in Norcal]

4 hours ago, john_tas said:

Thought cunninghaniana was a degree or two hardier than alexandrae and that both suffered defoliation after a short exposure to near or under zero temps. Haven't tried either but hard to imagine they would survive long below zero in habitat unless under heavy canopy. That far north the ground probably holds a fair bit of residual heat from the day which prevents snow from settling. 

Question is are there any hardier populations of either species out there or just the standard plants in natural microclimates giving the impression of hardiness when compared with local weather stations located in less favourable positions?

Given the popularity of these species, I suspect that if hardier varieties were out there they would already have been found. Could be a fun hunt for someone anyway.

All Archontophoenix species have no issues with prolonged freezing temps - say 6-8 hours at 29/30 degrees F.  (-1 or -2 C?)  They show no damage at these temps, even out in the open.  We don't generally get heavy frosts here, however, as a caveat.

[NorCalKing]

I can verify what Ben mentioned. I had many nights last winter in the 28/29F and had little to no damage. It was only when I had one particularly cold night dropping to 25F for several hours I got some leaf burn. Not ever severe then, but noticeable after a few weeks.

[Tyrone]

I think the Eungella A alexandrae's are a more cold hardy alex, although I have never scientifically tested it. They are definitely cool hardy. In winter under canopy those forests are cold in the middle of the day, maybe 12 or 13C at a guess, with not much sun reaching the forest floor. When I was there in 2007 it was cold. The locals said they had −6C up there and it killed their potatoe crops. They can get snow on the forest canopy and the tree ferns burn when that happens. But it's a thick canopy area so I doubt a −6C temp would ever be recorded in thick forest. Out in the middle of a cleared paddock for sure though. We stayed at Finch Hatton Gorge, and although at lower altitude I remember that it must have been around 2C come sun up. We had the reverse cycle air conditioner going flat out at night to keep us warm. During the day once the sun was out it was beautiful and it warmed up to maybe 22C in the sun.

[john_tas]

 

Is this map in any way an accurate distribution of  Archontophoenix? The concrete jungle of Melbourne is shown.

 

 

map from this website http://www.oznativeplants.com/plantdetail/Bangalow-Palm/Archontophoenix/cunninghamiana/zz.html