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Iraqi Washingtonia?


Tom Clarkson

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My wife and I worked for the US government in Iraq. There for nearly two years, I traveled around the country extensively.

As a palm enthusiast, with over forty varieties from all over the world presently in our gardens in Santiago and Boca de Tomatlan, I carefully gathered indigenous palm seeds and now have a substantive number of Iraqi palms successfully growing here in Mexico.

In addition to a number of magnificent Medjool date palms - collected from the large groves that Saddam had transplanted from Basrah to the central portion of the country - I found four stunning palmate-leaved specimens that look much like Washingtonia filifera. Though I was, virtually, all over the country these four - three in one stand and another approximately 500 meters away - were the only ones I ever found of this type.

Of unknown age, I would guess those seen in Iraq to have been 9-10 meters tall. However, the reddish brown trunks were exceptionally large - well exceeding a meter in diameter. I did not have opportunity to count the number of splits on those more mature, big bearded, palms. But on my approximately three year "youngsters", I find that they have 42 - 45 pointed, faded, light green split leaves. These bear long white threads and are divided approximately 1/3 of the distance from the stem. The green petioles have sharp, orange or brown teeth.

Upon request, I can forward pictures of either the mature specimens in Iraq or those we have here.

Has anyone any awareness/knowledge of more specific data/information on these palms? I believe them to be neither robusta or filifera.

Thank you.

Tom Clarkson

Santiago (Manzanillo), Colima, Mexico

email: olabrisa@gmail.com

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Hello Tom and welcome,

These palms sound very interesting. We would love to see all the pictures that you have and the experts here will be able to identify the palms for you. If you click on the "add reply" button to make another post, you'll see a "browse" button at the bottom right. This allows you to look through the file structure in your computer to find the picture you want to post. When you find it, select it and click "upload". You can keep adding replies with pictures as needed. If you're having trouble you can email them to me and I'll post them for you.

mattbradford1@cox.net

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Hello Tom.... Look forward to seeing these palm pics, they sound interesting! Jv

Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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Dear tom :)

yes,i fully agree with you,and i have pointed this out in one of my washy filifera threads,that the so called washy in middle-east region is very beautiful and is less of thorns as seen in pure washies of mexico or cal..

but many here refused to accept my argument is that washies in that region is very different ! and i have see those stills before.

hope your stills,just confirm that iam not wrong in my observation,their leaves are not that dark green but more of ash colour tint.

thanks & love,

Kris :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Hmmmm, wonder where Tom went? I was noticing fibers on my Nannorhops this weekend and thought maybe that's what he has.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Hello Tom.... Look forward to seeing these palm pics, they sound interesting! Jv

I can not figure out how to attach apicture. Could you give me your e-mail address please? Thanks. Tom

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Hello Tom and welcome,

These palms sound very interesting. We would love to see all the pictures that you have and the experts here will be able to identify the palms for you. If you click on the "add reply" button to make another post, you'll see a "browse" button at the bottom right. This allows you to look through the file structure in your computer to find the picture you want to post. When you find it, select it and click "upload". You can keep adding replies with pictures as needed. If you're having trouble you can email them to me and I'll post them for you.

mattbradford1@cox.net

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I can not figure out how to attach apicture. Could you give me your e-mail address please? Thanks. Tom

If you're having trouble you can email them to me and I'll post them for you.

mattbradford1@cox.net

island Vis, adriatic sea, Croatia. Zone 9b/10a

Temperature low last winter: -0.9°C/30.4 F

Temperature low this winter: -0.3°C/31.5 F

-Creating my own little palm heaven-

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Dear tom :)

yes,i fully agree with you,and i have pointed this out in one of my washy filifera threads,that the so called washy in middle-east region is very beautiful and is less of thorns as seen in pure washies of mexico or cal..

but many here refused to accept my argument is that washies in that region is very different ! and i have see those stills before.

hope your stills,just confirm that iam not wrong in my observation,their leaves are not that dark green but more of ash colour tint.

thanks & love,

Kris :)

I can not figure out how to attach a picture. Might you plese send me you e-mail address?

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Hmmmm, wonder where Tom went? I was noticing fibers on my Nannorhops this weekend and thought maybe that's what he has.

I could not figure out how to attafch a picture! Might you pleas send me your e-mail address? Thanks.

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Here's the first pic from Tom. Looks Washingtonia to me for sure. The lack of flare at the bottom and the pure girth make me think W. filifera. More pix to come. Hopefully we can get a difinitive I.D. :)

post-126-1226961768_thumb.jpg

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Here's the first pic from Tom. Looks Washingtonia to me for sure. The lack of flare at the bottom and the pure girth make me think W. filifera. More pix to come. Hopefully we can get a difinitive I.D. :)

Whoa Nelly. Now that is a Washingtonia.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Here's the first pic from Tom. Looks Washingtonia to me for sure. The lack of flare at the bottom and the pure girth make me think W. filifera. More pix to come. Hopefully we can get a difinitive I.D. :)

Whoa Nelly. Now that is a Washingtonia.

DOUBLE WHOA!! Waiting to see the tops of those palms! wowser

C from NC

:)

Bone dry summers, wet winters, 2-3 days ea. winter in low teens.

Siler City, NC

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Now, there's a group of fattys! (the palms, not the person)

"If you need me, I'll be outside" -Randy Wiesner Palm Beach County, Florida Zone 10Bish

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Wow! Those trees have some incredible girth. I'll take two please. :drool:

Ron

Wellington, Florida

Zone 11 in my mind

Zone 10a 9a in reality

13miles West of the Atlantic in Palm Beach County

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Good heavens...

Im just worshipping them....21b511d0.gif

I see that those washy do love the soil & drought condition prevailing in that macedonian region...

but my washy.F are going nowhere in my wet tropical climate..

And dear Tom wish to see more of those Jamboos_Please ! :drool:

And dear matty thanks for posting that still without reducing the res..

Lots of love,

Kris :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Tom is going over all his pics trying to find a shot of the leaves of those monster Washies. In the meantime, check out a couple of shots he's shared with me.

Bagdad from the sky. Check out all the date palms. :)

post-126-1227122468_thumb.jpg

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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And a sweet pic with some kids.

post-126-1227122495_thumb.jpg

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Some new found Iraqi friends. I've gotta get Tom geared up on how to upload pics so he can share some of his great pics with us. Hopefully he'll find some pics of those Washies so we can keep this on topic. The pics were just so neat I wanted to share them here so we could get a sense of our new friend Tom.

post-126-1227122703_thumb.jpg

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Here's the offspring from those monster Washies that Tom took pics of. I assume that they're W. filifera but he dosen't understand why they're so large and how they got there. I'll let him explain.

post-126-1227550390_thumb.jpg

post-126-1227550413_thumb.jpg

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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The all green petioles say filifera to me.

post-126-1227550523_thumb.jpg

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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The all green petioles say filifera to me.

Why do I not think these are Washingtonia filifera? Well, my questions - relative thereto - are as follow:

(1) The original four (and only ones I ever found in my travels throughout Iraq over the course of nearly two years ) were not in anyone's garden. How did they get there if not indigenous?

(2) I have seen other, nearby Washingtonia palms, that were much more conventional in size but with, perhaps, less than 1/5 the trunk girth. No one watered those palms and they receive negligible (make that very, very scant) rainfall. While perhaps a half mile from the Tigris River they might be the recipiant of groundwater - but so are the other trees that have the much smaller trunks. How is it that these grew so stout in trunk?

I have been unable to find my full palm shots so have asked a friend still there to go voer and take a picture so I can share it with ya'll.

Thanks for any/all ideas, thoughts and counsel.

Tom

Santiago, Mexico

(918) 707-5146

olabrisa@gmail.com

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hmmmm,interesting.

to the 2 points in yer last post my reply is:1)birds & 2) variation of species.

the main problem i have with this is in believing that a new species of a particular palm can spring into existence on the other side of the world from its normal habitat.but hey,these kind of discussions are what the forum is for! :)

the "prince of snarkness."

 

still "warning-free."

 

san diego,california,left coast.

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Dear Tom :)

certainly i admire 2 things you have done,one is to take a still of that jamboo washy and another thing is that you have brought seeds and are even grown few of these babies..

And if your friend in iraq is our kind of palm enthuisest,you can ask him to collect those special seeds from those specific palms till he is back to u.s.either he can mail those seeds to you or while returning he can bring them along.

since iam shure some of the nursery guys who want new bloodline infused into their collection will be willing to buy seeds from you.

And one question i have now is,have you planted any of those washies in the ground in your place or a park...since more the time they stay in those big containers they will certainly form a small trunk.since more of the palms growing in the wild are all germinated and grown in the place where seeds just fall off or transported by birds..

Another question is are their any houses or village resident near these trees or are their nothing near by except wilderness..?

But in my entire life i have not seen any washy put up such huge trunk and with numerous petiloes in its trunk area...fentestic find and this bloodline has to be propogate in areas where it has a chance.

And i wish to call this Palm _ 'The Mother of all Washy Filifera' ! :)

And iam eager for the stills of the crown section of this palm...hope your friend their is working on it..And by the way i like your plastic paint contaniners used as planters. :greenthumb: And by the way how old is your washy seen in those containers ? since its leaf fronds appear tempered & lifting up...its time they are planted in the soil.

Thanks & love,

Kris :yay::drool:

By the way here is a still of our washy filifera growing in chennai(India)..

post-108-1227678440_thumb.jpg post-108-1227678469_thumb.jpg

post-108-1227678502_thumb.jpg post-108-1227678536_thumb.jpg

.

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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The all green petioles say filifera to me.

Why do I not think these are Washingtonia filifera? Well, my questions - relative thereto - are as follow:

(1) The original four (and only ones I ever found in my travels throughout Iraq over the course of nearly two years ) were not in anyone's garden. How did they get there if not indigenous?

(2) I have seen other, nearby Washingtonia palms, that were much more conventional in size but with, perhaps, less than 1/5 the trunk girth. No one watered those palms and they receive negligible (make that very, very scant) rainfall. While perhaps a half mile from the Tigris River they might be the recipiant of groundwater - but so are the other trees that have the much smaller trunks. How is it that these grew so stout in trunk?

I have been unable to find my full palm shots so have asked a friend still there to go voer and take a picture so I can share it with ya'll.

Thanks for any/all ideas, thoughts and counsel.

Tom

Santiago, Mexico

(918) 707-5146

olabrisa@gmail.com

To heck with the pictures Tom, seeds man, how do I get seeds? I am begging. No I am crying. On my knees even. Yeah, I'll pay. And beg, and cry.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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To heck with the pictures Tom, seeds man, how do I get seeds? I am begging. No I am crying. On my knees even. Yeah, I'll pay. And beg, and cry.

:lol:

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Simona, that too is a good sized filifera! Any other pics, maybe of the crown, trunk, etc??? Thanks. Jv

Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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Enjoyed looking at these pics.....thanks. Keep posting.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Simona,

Thanks for the pics! Have a couple of questions... are the four pics of the same palm tree? It seems as though that pictures 1 and 3 are of one tree and 2 and 4 of another??? Maybe it's just the angle of the shot but it almost looks like pics 1 & 3 are of a brahea armata (blue tint and lack of 'teeth' on the petioles, seeds seem a little larger)... A very interesting palm if these pics are all of the same tree... I'd be interested in any other details or pics you have... thanks. Jv

Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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Dear Jv :)

even i had the same opnion and i have told this to simona,that in her country the washy's look too smooth to be called washingtonia.since they lack leaf hair & no hook kind of thorns seen in its fronds..And even Bill was surprised to see a washy without hook thorns which are usually brownish to yellowish depending its age of the leaf..

yes it could be a breha specie of some kind.2 stills of one perticular variety & the other 2 are the washies... :hmm:

And dear simona thanks for posting those stills,since i was very confused with those stills then..

thanks & love,

Kris :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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The pictures are of the same Palm. Actually, there is another similar one just behind this palm shown in the pic.

Only very few Washis in Jordan are like this shown, all others are "normal" Filibusta or Robusta.

November 2007:

at9dpvt55zeibseao.jpg

July 2008 - flowering

b06qn3ypvsh97a3g3.jpg

b06qrvwhw3qjgp0j7.jpg

From fallen seeds:

b07uiahblg5evjvgh.jpg

40270.gif

Greetings from Amman/Jordan

Simona

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Simona,

Thanks for the pics! Have a couple of questions... are the four pics of the same palm tree? It seems as though that pictures 1 and 3 are of one tree and 2 and 4 of another??? Maybe it's just the angle of the shot but it almost looks like pics 1 & 3 are of a brahea armata (blue tint and lack of 'teeth' on the petioles, seeds seem a little larger)... A very interesting palm if these pics are all of the same tree... I'd be interested in any other details or pics you have... thanks. Jv

JV,

Brahea armata petioles are armed, at least they are on the ones I have.

Some of the websites I've seen state that one way to differentiate between W. filifera and W. robusta is the lack of armament on the petioles on W. filifera. I'm becoming convinced that virtually every Washingtonia available in the nursery trade in the US at this point is in fact a hybrid of the two. Being hybrids some will exhibit more filifera traits while others will be more similar to robusta, but I've seen few Washingtonias that don't exhibit traits of both to one degree or another.

I believe the same can be said of Butia capitatas sourced out of FL. Most seem to exhibit Jubaea traits to one degree or another. Ironically, every B. capitata I've gotten from CA where there actually are Jubaeas appears free of Jubaea traits. Weird. Actually I seem to recall Merrill stating something similar about the Butias in FL.

Martin Farris, San Angelo, TX

San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

Jul - 92F/69F, Jan - 55F/31F

Lows:

02-03: 18F;

03-04: 19F;

04-05: 17F;

05-06: 11F;

06-07: 13F;

07-08: 14F 147.5 Freezing Degree-Hours http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ee+hours\;

08-09: 23F;

09-10: 12F 467.6 Freezing Degree Hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 24.2F;

10-11: 13F 1,059.5 Freezing Degree Hours with Strong Winds/Rain/Snow/Sleet, Average Temperature During Freeze 19.4F;

Record low -4F in 1989 (High of 36F that p.m.) 1,125.2 freezing degree hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.6F;

Record Freeze 1983: 2,300.3 Freezing Degree Hours with a low of 5F, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.7F.

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Attached is a picture of a filifera that is probably of equivalent height to the one pictured at the beginning of this thread.... as you can see, this palm (like all filiferas I've seen) is armed with those petiole teeth. I've never seen a filifera without them and that is why the shots above threw me off as to whether or not it was the same palm. Jv

post-362-1228009732_thumb.jpg

Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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Dear Friends :)

Seeing the new stills from simona,i must say that its a washy no doubt,but could be a desert palm with pure bloodline without any trace of washy robusta in it ?

Tom's Iraqi washy & simona's washy are collectors edition,the problem with nurseries guys is they keep eastablishing new saplings from the same mother plant,the result we cannot find new bloodline over a period of time.. :blink:

Hope those grow or survive in our wet tropical climate... :huh:

Lots of love,

Kris :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Well, I couldn't rest, but get down to the spot again.

Crown, 'cause these are the most asked pics:

b4appc5ltrc5t8iu0.jpg

As mentioned above: no spines can be seen:

b4apnwl29adshxt20.jpg

Trunk base (the Fig tree is still there):

b4apri8iyzr3ekuoo.jpg

40270.gif

Greetings from Amman/Jordan

Simona

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And now, I'll put your mind to rest..... :lol: , as I did mine:

What's between the crown & the trunk base of a palmtree?

Here you go:

b4apv9t727rn2yixk.jpg

Revelation:

b4apwge4u45jcclzs.jpg

As the skirt has been removed (which I find totally inesthetic), earlier petioles came to sight:

b4apzs3vlur2gvkns.jpg

:indifferent:

40270.gif

Greetings from Amman/Jordan

Simona

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So.....

b4aq25un6ex7armu0.jpg

It seems that these Filiferas don't keep their teeth into old age :lol:

b4aq3mt6swjlal6jc.jpg

Well, hope the riddle is solved.

40270.gif

Greetings from Amman/Jordan

Simona

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