Dypsis cabadae suspect

[JD in the OC]

Found this growing in Miami. Does this cabadae look normal? Do they ever get this strange red ramenta on the crown?

[brodklop]

the leaves look a little plumous. Any photo of leaves. Looks like D. madagascariensis. Definatly not Cabadae

[Walter John]

the leaves look a little plumous. Any photo of leaves. Looks like D. madagascariensis. Definatly not Cabadae

Hi Brod, I thought at first it looks like the cabadae x madagascariensis hybrid, very similar to mine, what do you think ?

[Walter John]

bump,

looking for more thoughts folks, don't be shy.

[Matt in SD]

I can't see the leaflets very well, but the only Dypsis I've seen with that exact color and patterned crown and trunk is Dypsis pembana. And I mean it's a 100% match to the trunk and crown of pembana as far as I can see.

Of course there are two different palms in California being sold as pembana, one with a dark crown (KW Palms was selling these) and one with a light crown (from Jeff M, Floribunda). The palm in your photo looks just like the light crown variety.

There is a "unique identifier" feature of the light crown pembana, which I'm pretty certain is the true species. At the base of the petiole, on the upper surface, where all other medium suckering Dypsis I've seen have a channeled petiole, Dypsis pembana has a bulging structure sticking up from the channel. It big enough that essentially right at the base of the petiole, it's not channeled at all since this bulge more than fills the channel. I can take some photos tonight if this isn't clear.

Matt

Edited June 30, 2008 by Matt in SD

[Jeff Searle]

I just went outside this afternoon and this is what I observed. My clumps of D. cabadae (20'+), D. pembana ( 10-12') and my D. lanceolata (15'+) all have some distinct red ramenta on them. Some is lighter red than others. My D. madagascariensis (30'+) does not have any. None. Based on the close-up of the pictures, I'm not 100% sure if it's a D. cabadae or not, especially without seeing the upper crown of mature leaves. I would suspect that it could be, only because it's by far the most common palm found in cultivation. But, I would like to see the mature leaves for sure. I wouldn't rule out anything yet.

Jeff

[LJG]

Matt, this "bulging structure" is found in Dypsis sp. "mayotte", Dypsis lutescens and as well as Dypsis pembana as you pointed out. It is also seen in Dypsis "cabadae x madagascariensis". Oddly enough Dypsis lanceolata does not have this.

[JD in the OC]

I hijacked the PACSOA picture of Dypsis sp. White Triangle to make a couple observations...

Arrow #1 is pointing to the ramenta on the crown which seems to be similar to our suspect palm.

Arrow #2 is pointing to the base of the leaf sheath, showing the sharp angle with which the sheath wraps around the crownshaft. Decaryi is the only Dypsis that produces these angles on the sheaths. In fact, our Leptocheilos x Decaryi F1 hybrids have it too.

[JD in the OC]

Look at the loose leaf sheaths and small amount of ramenta on one of the suckers.

[Walter John]

I was curious to study this palm to see if it may be the same as my cabadae x madagascariensis hybrid but I don't think it is. The leaflets on my plant are generally keeping the cabadae plane not much plumose action, the ramenta is insignificant compared to the one in post 1. I took a stack of photos so let's have a gander at the hybrid. Is it the same ?

[Ntheastpalms]

G'Day JD

I think this palm may be a Dypsis cabadae x D decaryi. My brother has two in his garden that have 12 feet of clear trunk. There apperas to be quite a lot of variation in this particular hybrid with some of the plants looking like the "white triangle" & others look almost like a D madagascariensis with the red ramenta but the leaves are not plumose in appearance. I will try & get a couple of photo's of the plants in my brothers garden.

Incidently the plants were purchased as D cabadae but right from the start their growth was quite rapid & we have found out that they are frost & drought resistant. When my brother & I realised that the palms were not true cabadae's we tried to track down where the plants originated from & all we could find out was that they came from a whole sale nursery on the Sunshine coast of Queensland.

[Ntheastpalms]

Here's an old photo from a couple of years ago & its not a close up but you get a look at the overall palm.

[LJG]

Matt, so it was just a guess then that your plant is D. cabadae x D decaryi? What did it look like smaller plant? Your plant looks more like my Dypsis "cabadae x madagascariensis". Although mine still has not suckered.

Nice looking plant by the way.

[Ntheastpalms]

Hello Len

The reason that I/we suspect that this particular hybrid is a decaryi x cabadae is through further discussions with other growers & nurserymen here in Australia.

[Walter John]

Did someone say cabadae x decaryii ?

Here's that beauty from Clayton's again. Looks better in real life of course.

[Walter John]

and again

[Ntheastpalms]

Nice Wal

I suspect that my brothers palm is one in the same. To fully answer Len's question only one of the plants in my brothers garden has clumped the palm pictured above is actually a multi planted specimen. Stay tuned I will get some more up to date & close up pictures.

[TimHopper]

Looks exactly like my pembana of about the same size. Tim

[Alan_Tampa]

got some like that here in tampa, from a grower down south who insists they are cabadae. I got one, so did someone in St. Pete who posts here but I cannot remember whom. Not cabadae, my guess was D. madagascariensis X cabadae, but what do I know?

Alan

[LJG]

About the palm in question at the start of this thread, it seems odd to me that a decaryi x cabadae would sucker so profusely. It looks like it has 5 trunks or more.

Matt, the reason I am so interested in your palm is I have one that looks just like it. Sold as Pembana, but certainly not. I am guesssing D. madagascariensis X cabadae. I also have a Dypsis cabadae x lucubensis (came from Australia - I can find out from who) that is very similar but a little different. So I am just trying to go off what people like you have as known to try and guess what mine are.

[osideterry]

Nothing to add except Dypsis cabadae, lanceolata, pembana, and sp. mayotte are my favorite palms. They are also all probably doomed in my yard. If any of these were hybridized with decaryi, I might have a shot at it.

Until then, I'm really enjoying everyone's photos and comments. Carry on...

[Matt in SD]

I'm getting a bit confused here. On Wal's palm, I can see that the leaflets are grouped, which seems consistent with madgascariensis x cabadae (or pembana or lanceolata). And the cabadae x decaryi is just clearly not a straight cabadae because of it's shape. But on JD's plant starting this post and Matt's brothers plant it looks to me like the leaflets are regular. Both of these palms look very much like my Dypsis pembana. It does look like the leaflets may be a bit narrower and the crown possibly a bit more open, but this could just be the age of the oldest leaf. Now the Dypsis pembana that I got (originating from Floribunda) is perhaps not the true species since there is another palm going around that at least Kevin Weaver insists is D pembana, but I know for sure it's not a hybrid. Jeff had tons of these, and there are many identical palms all over Hawaii and SoCal. So what is it about these palms that makes you guys think they are hybrids? Is there something that is not coming through well in the photos? Len does your palm that you think is a hybrid have grouped leaflets? And also, could maybe some of the Florida and Australia guys could post a photo of what people consider to be Dypsis pembana in your area?

And Len, that's interesting about the other Dypsis you've observed with the bulge at the petiole base. I had thought that maybe the alternate "dark" pembana might be 'mayotte', but it does not have the bulge. Perhaps more interesting, I looked in POM and it actually mentions this structure for Dypsis cabadae in the description. But for pembana it does not mention it and there is a drawing of the petiole base and top of the leaf sheath of pembana and it does not show this bulge. So it does really make me wonder which of the palms we're growing is the true pembana.

Here is a photo of the crown of my pembana

And a out of date photo of the plant

Matt

[LJG]

Matt, you should stop by sometime. It would be easier to show you as I have a few differnet ones actually. Including one you would be highly interested in seeing.

[JD in the OC]

Ntheastpalms,

The one in your picture looks very very close to our palm. The main giveaway for us is the angle on the base of the leaf sheath and the red ramenta, which true D. cabadae don't have and D. pembana have but in a much different form.

Wal's pictures look pretty close too. Is there a chance yours is a D. cabadae x madagascariensis?

Matt in SD,

We were walking down entire rows of Field Grown D. cabadae and only a couple looked like the one in our first picture. It is more likely that they are D. cabadae hybrids than D. pembanas.

Also, the leaves on our suspect palm grown on a regular plane (flat) but protrude upward with a slight curve. This trait can also be observed in ALL Dypsis leptocheilos x decaryi hybrids. Pembanas have lanceolate leaves, whereas Cabadae have ribbon-like leaves that are usually long and thin. Our suspect palm was definitely the latter.

[Matt in SD]

Thanks JD,

I figure you know enough to know that these aren't straight species, thanks for explaining exactly what you're focusing on. I think the hardest part for me is that there just aren't any cabadae's around here so I'm not familiar with their look. It is amazing to me how much those hybrids resemble pembanas, at least in the crown and trunk coloration. They look more like pembanas then cabadae's to me, but then if it is a madgascariensis cross, that makes sense since the madagascariensis would lighten up the cabadae color I think.

Len, I'll send you an email. I should have a good window of opportunity coming up in a few weeks.

Matt

[cfkingfish]

You are going to have to look further to find the answer.

[MattyB]

What a tease! What do you mean Christian?

[LJG]

Change your avatar to Yodo and change this sentence to "Look further you must, the answer you will find."

"

You are going to have to look further to find the answer.

[MattyB]

do it

[Ken Johnson]

HOOOLY COW. Now who here has done or seen done electrophoreseis on the DNA of hybrid Dypsis? That would be the ONLY way I know of figuring out any of this unless all the mothers were emasculated and the breader new for sure that the only pollen to ever touch the virgin mother was from the desired father. Now that may sound like a mothfull for some of you but it is the truth. Look it up.

In the meantime we can all hypothosize as to who the daddy is and even who's yo mama but all we realy have is a great looking palm and if that is what you want then ax OC where to go and buy it!

[tropicalb]

I'm not here to add anything to the discussion other than to say:

I love ken's avatar.

[JD in the OC]

Ken has brought up a very good point... of course all of this is speculation! (And I'm not being fecicious). But that's what's fun about it!!!

Anyone have connections with University of Florida? Maybe we can send them some leaf samples for analysis. I don't even think this is something Dransfield or Hodel can substantiate. DNA is the only way. Notwithstanding, it is a beautiful palm and we are probably going to buy it anyway.

Christian,

So, what DO you think it is?

[LJG]

Ken, I actually disagree with you a little. And considering electrophoresis is not an option for most, use of the forums and having discussion is the next best thing. In fact if people do not wish to join in or make productive contribution they can simply click right out. That is the beauty of forums.

All hybrids will have certain characteristics. Figuring out what the parents are is not hard for many crosses. If I see a P. roebelenii with P. reclinata in it, I will know the parents. A Leptocheilos with Decaryi is not hard to spot. Did Jeff Searle know "all the mothers were emasculated and the breader new for sure that the only pollen to ever touch the virgin mother was from the desired father."??? I doubt it. But we all know what the cross is. And who cares if we never know for sure? The fun for me is debating it and learning about it. I think you are too stuck on the Caribbean stuff and how easy they hybridize and how almost impossible many of those crosses are to tell without electrophoresis. Dypsis really are not near that hard to figure out.

PS - next time in Cali, I will work you like a rib.....

[cfkingfish]

I was thinking along the same lines of Ken. Take a look at the seed, the flowers, and if you are lucky enough, have some sort of DNA analysis. Any taxonomist would not give you a definite answer on the plant without examining the defining characteristics of the plant. With so much visual variation within this subfamily of Dypsis it is often just opinions that will determine what a palm will be. I do like this Palmtalk's version of Crossfire, however.

[Ken Johnson]

Yes Len I aggree that some hybrids are easy to tell but in this case it would seem that all bets are off.

BTW I have forced some hybrids before and think that it is real fun to see what happens. In some cases the resulting babies are worth good money and or are real pretty. In other cases using up so much time to produce an uninteresting hybrid is not time (=$) well spent.

Anyone want to but a 20 Year old single trunk Dypsis cabadae x lucabensis? Wish I could sell that POS.

[LJG]

Hey Ken, can you might be able to help us with this one here. Talk a picture of the 20 footer. I would love to see it anyway!

Yes Len I aggree that some hybrids are easy to tell but in this case it would seem that all bets are off.

BTW I have forced some hybrids before and think that it is real fun to see what happens. In some cases the resulting babies are worth good money and or are real pretty. In other cases using up so much time to produce an uninteresting hybrid is not time (=$) well spent.

Anyone want to but a 20 Year old single trunk Dypsis cabadae x lucabensis? Wish I could sell that POS.

[Ken Johnson]

OK Len here are a few images.

BTW My avitar was created by Putu! ( That is just my favorite nickname!)

[osideterry]

Ken - If you were in California, that 20ft POS would be an easy sale. If it has any hybrid vigor or coldhardiness, I'd be interested.

[LJG]

Terry, it probably cost more then $10 though!

[Ntheastpalms]

Hello JD

Here are acouple of new photos of the hybrid dypsis. I now really dont know what the original cross was but they are very fast growers & drought/frost hardy.

A close up of the crown