sabal pumos vs. sabal rosei

[merrill]

I have a sabal which is almost w/o question either pumos or rosei, in pretty deep shade about 5 feet tall. Can anyone help me differentiate?

Many Thanks, merrill

[Alicehunter2000]

Pictures?.......not that I would know.......just want to see pictures.

[JMBreland]

<<off topic>>

Hi, Dr. Merrill. In the case you haven't noticed, I've sent you a couple private messages. If you prefer I can re-send them to your e-mail. If so, what's your e-mail address?

[iwan]

Merril,

I don't have a S. rosei for comparison, but here is a 5g S. pumos.

[FRITO]

Jeremy, nice to have another gulf coaster on the board! I encorage you to post and shaare yoour palms and cold hardy tips with us!

Here are some photos of the palm in question:

rosei : http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Curre...tail/06876.html

http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1211680463.html

http://www.palmislandnursery.com/sitebuild.../sabalrosei.jpg

pumos: many photos up close of pumos on FBG http://palmguide.org/images.php?family=are...amp;genus=sabal

[Eric in Orlando]

Hi Dr. Wilcox,

I looked up Zona's monograph on Sabal and found the descriptions for Sabal pumos and Sabal rosei. I am including just the trunk, leaf, and fruit description since I assume yours isn't flowering.

In the monograph it mentions S. pumos, S. rosei, and S. uresana are related and share a common ancestor and that S. pumos has the largest fruit of the 3.

Sabal pumos

Slender, 15m tall, trunk 13-35 cm gray smooth, leaves 15-25 evenly green, strongly costapalmate, filiferous, petioles 1.9-3.6 cm wide, 1-2m long, hastula acute 5-15.2 cm long, glabrous or glabrescent, margin of hastula erect and undulate or occasionally involute, flat, or revolute and entire, segments 60-80 per leaf, connate for 30% of length, middle segment 80-150 cm long, 1.8-4.0 cm wide, .2-.3 mm thick, apex bifurcate for 20-30 cm, fruit oblate spheroidal, greenish brown-black, thick pericarp 18.5-27.8 mm diameter, 14.5-22.6 mm high, seed strongly oblate concave 11.8-18.8 mm in diameter 7.5-11.2 mm high

Sabal rosei

Slender palm 15m tall, trunk 15-30 cm DBH gray,smooth, leaves 10-30 evenly green, strongly costapalmate, filiferous, petioles 1.8-2.4 cm wide, 1-2 m long, hastula acute 5.1-7.0 cm long, glabrescent (often with lepidote pubescence on adaxial surface of midveins), margin of hastula flat and undulate, occasionally revolute, involute, or erect, segments 60-80 per leaf connate for 25% of their length, middle segment 55-110 cm long, 2.3-4.3 cm wide, 0.2-0.3 mm thick, apex bifurcate for 30-40 cm (rarely undivided), fruit oblate spheroidal, greenish brown black, medium to thick pericarp 15.3-22.4 mm in diameter, 13.5-20.1 mm high, seed strongly oblate concave, 10-15.5 mm in diameter, 6.4-8.7 mm high

[tank]

Wow,

Those descriptions are similar!

Any lepidote pubescence on its adaxial midveins?

Merrill, good luck on keying them out.

[Kris]

Dear Robert

thanks for the visuals...And the visual-man(me) very happy seeing those S.beauties & hi res stills..

Dear Robert keep up the good work..!

lots of love to you,

Kris

[merrill]

Luke, Robert. Eric: Many TX for your info! Unfortunately, more data has resulted in more uncertainty.

TO: Ed Brown: Did we get to the habitat of S. pumos?

Hi, Jason: You sound extremely expert. Can I get you to look at it in GVL?

Best Wishes, merrill

[edbrown_III]

Merrill

We sure did!--- I believe it was on the way back from the abortive visit to see Felix in Bucerious. I have a few plants growing after all these years

Best wishes,

Ed

[JMBreland]

Frito, thanks for your welcome! I've been on-board for a long while, but as you can see, I'm not very active on the forum in spite of my passionate love affair with palms. Yes, it's definitely nice to see gulf-coasters on here. I hope to be more active on this forum from now on and benefit from the wealth of information on here.

As for S. rosei vs. S. pumos, I have no clue. Never had the opportunity to study these palms up-close & personal.

[_Keith]

Frito, thanks for your welcome! I've been on-board for a long while, but as you can see, I'm not very active on the forum in spite of my passionate love affair with palms. Yes, it's definitely nice to see gulf-coasters on here. I hope to be more active on this forum from now on and benefit from the wealth of information on here.

As for S. rosei vs. S. pumos, I have no clue. Never had the opportunity to study these palms up-close & personal.

From another Gulf Coaster, good to see you posting. I need all of the help I can get here on the "third coast." So many things seem unproven here, one way or the other.

[tank]

Hi, Jason: You sound extremely expert. Can I get you to look at it in GVL?

Merrill,

I will try and swing by and check out your sabals and take some pictures if you think it would be useful.

These are the younger sabals near your S. uresana, correct?

I'll give you a call before I head over.

Also, I'm no expert!

Keep in mind that I've only seen one S. pumos at Fairchild and I've never seen S. rosei in the flesh. S. pumos kinda reminded me of a sabal version of L. decora, while the pictures of S. rosei make it look like a smaller, "daintier" version of S. palmetto. The leaf form appears to be the easiest way to tell them apart.

Anyway, I'll go see if the mid veins are more rough than glabrescent ...

[edbrown_III]

Merrill,

We collected seeds of S. pumos palms--- I a m sure I have a few photos of the hill side as well as the S. rosei along the rail road.

I will try to find and scan. I dont remember anything very distinquishing about the plants --- they are different but still simular to a S palmetto-- not real distinctive like S. mauritiformis, domingenis, ureseana etc.

Best regards,

Ed

[merrill]

deleted

Edited June 2, 2008 by merrill

[merrill]

Hi, Tank:

Thanks; look forward to hearing frrom you.

Hi, Ed:

Which of the two Sabal were we looking at when the kids started playing with the rental car way down the hill?

Thank you fellows for your help.

Best Wishes, merrill

[merrill]

Deleted

Edited June 2, 2008 by merrill

[edbrown_III]

It was where the kids were messing with the rental car in Morelios

Ed

[Scott Zona]

Merrill,

S. pumos and S. rosei are VERY similar. You'll need fruits and seeds to see the difference. They are both beautiful palms, so whatever you have, it will be nice!

Scott

[edbrown_III]

http://palmguide.org/images.php?family=are...amp;genus=sabal

note link S. rosei has very large seeds as I recall.

best wishes

Ed

[PalmGuyWC]

Ed,

Thanks for the Sabal link. It's one of the best I've seen. I think it should be mentioned that aside from the dwarf Sabals that have little or no trunk, that most of the others look so much alike, that it would take an expert to tell them apart. Most of them are quite cold hardy, but a few aren't, and they all like heat.

Dick

[Scott Zona]

It's true, most Sabal look more-or-less alike. S. pumos has the largest fruits in the genus (and they're edible!). It would be interesting to see if S. pumos does well in California. It's not a coastal species (as most are); it grows at middle elevations (600-1300 meters) in southwest Mexico. It MAY be a bit more cold-tolerant than other species.

[edbrown_III]

Scott,

Merrill and I used your monograph in 1994 to navigate through Mexico to see various species of Sabals. This is the only way we could make sense of the differnt plants and locations. We drove all through Morelios to find some of the locations to see S. pumos.

I recognize in these days of GPS everything is more defined. but at the time there was no way we could find little populations of obscure taxa without the benefit of your monograph.

Dick,

Much obliged this virtual herbarium that FTG is very helpful and has taught me so much (late in life). I live way north in FLorida where you cant grow many species but I am able to navigate through the various herbarium sheets to see specific differences in the seeds flowers etc. Information that to which, I would not otherwise be privy.

Best regards,

Ed

[JMBreland]

Edible fruits?! Very interesting! Any idea if the fruits are palatable, though? (A lot of plant material are edible but not palatable, that is, containing no toxins that harm us but not exactly pleasant to try to eat.) If it is palatable, that's another reason to try S. pumos in my garden.

A tidbit of interesting cold-hardiness info about S. rosei: Haynes Jackson in Anniston, AL, reported that his juvenile S. rosei endured 8F without damage.

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

Haven't seen you for ages! Hope all is well. Guess I'll just wait for my pumos/rosei to show itself by blooming and fruiting. Thanks for your response; sorry to be so slow; computer misbehaviour delayed me.

Scott, you're a high quality botanist, can you offer advice on red GROlights to enhance blossoming - like where the light receptors [if any] are on the plant?

Many Thanks and Best Wishes, merrill

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Bump! I was looking for sabal pumos for a while because of the large edible fruit and finally got a hold of a decent size specimen. Has anyone actually tried the fruit and is it any good? Since it grows at some elevation in Southwest Mexico, one would think it would do well at sea level in California provided it gets Summer water.

[Moose]

Bump! I was looking for sabal pumos for a while because of the large edible fruit and finally got a hold of a decent size specimen. Has anyone actually tried the fruit and is it any good? Since it grows at some elevation in Southwest Mexico, one would think it would do well at sea level in California provided it gets Summer water.

Oooh, some photos of new acquisition would be nice to see. I think it should do well for you. Sabals prefer to get into the ground ASAP. Its the time of the year to plant!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Bump! I was looking for sabal pumos for a while because of the large edible fruit and finally got a hold of a decent size specimen. Has anyone actually tried the fruit and is it any good? Since it grows at some elevation in Southwest Mexico, one would think it would do well at sea level in California provided it gets Summer water.

Oooh, some photos of new acquisition would be nice to see. I think it should do well for you. Sabals prefer to get into the ground ASAP. Its the time of the year to plant!

I'm working on that. Should be in the ground before the end of the week. Here is a photo, it's interesting how narrower and upright growing s. pumos is compared to the other ones.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Bump again. It's been over a year since I planted the sabal pumos, it's quite fast (for a sabal that is). I also have a rosei that was a small three leaf blade plant last year, and this year it's forming characteristic leaves, but it turns out to be blue. Is sabal rosei blue? The Palm beach palm and cycad sabal key I have shows only uresana to have blue leaves so what I thought to be rosei is probably yet another uresana.

[Jubaea_James760]

Bump. Post you pics of sabal pumos. It's been several years just wondering how there doing out there 

Btw anyone in z 8b should try this one.  Extremely cold hardy.

[Phoenikakias]

Here is my juvenile pumos

Edited August 15, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

And here is another juvenile Sabal, allegedly a mexicana. Pumos has bigger leaves albeit a year younger.

[Jubaea_James760]

Very nice! How long have they been in the ground?  Any winter damage to the mexicana?

[Jubaea_James760]

Keep the pics coming! 

[Josh-O]

pumos is a better tree IMO

[Jubaea_James760]

I'm actually a little disappointed in Mexicana in my experience. Not as cold hardy when first planted out. Although I know once established its a tough sabal I'd have to say pumos wins in hardiness when both planted from 15gal's. Mexicana died on me it's first winter :/ 

Mexicana was always one of my favorites when I first started getting into sabals followed by  Sabal Birmingham & Riverside. But I have to say Sabal pumos is a very pretty & slender sabal! Honestly I love them all! 

[Phoenikakias]

Fortunately my garden does not experience as low temps, which are capable to kill a S mexicana.