Butia lallemantii

78 posts in this topic

Here you can see pics of this palm and others at ´´travelogue´´

BTW .Is it Butia lallementii or B. lallemantii?

  Kelen (a brazilian forestry student) wrote it with an ´´a´´in some of his letters...

http://palmtalk.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboar...=ST;f=12;t=9792

That 6th page doesn´t ´´work´´ for me.

Here is it:   http://www.butia.co.uk/2008p5.html

Here are some of my pics:

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/562404097mEVZeg

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Thanks for posting those pictures Alberto. Those are some very nice palms. I really like the Butia's. Both the forms would be great to have. I hope they get into cultivation soon.  I also hope some pollen was collected. Can you imagine a clumping Jubaea X B.  lallementii  or a clumpng B. eriospatha X B.  lallementii. Suppose the pollen somehow worked when applied to a Syagrus romanzoffiana (even though Syagrus romanzoffiana does'nt easily want to take other Butia pollen). We might get a cold hardy clumping Syagrus.  Yea, that's a nice palm. The adventure must have been exciting.

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cute looking palm Alberto, kunnen we nog zaad verwachten? :P

Reminds me a little of Calibanus hookeri.

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I found this abstract about B.lallemantii. It says the name was given in  honour to the first person who wrote about this palm in 1858 ,Robert Avé-Lallemant, a german doctor.

http://209.85.165.104/search?....1&gl=br

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(Jeff zone 8 N.C. @ Feb. 10 2008,10:25)

QUOTE
Thanks for posting those pictures Alberto. Those are some very nice palms. I really like the Butia's. Both the forms would be great to have. I hope they get into cultivation soon.  I also hope some pollen was collected. Can you imagine a clumping Jubaea X B.  lallementii  or a clumpng B. eriospatha X B.  lallementii. Suppose the pollen somehow worked when applied to a Syagrus romanzoffiana (even though Syagrus romanzoffiana does'nt easily want to take other Butia pollen). We might get a cold hardy clumping Syagrus.  Yea, that's a nice palm. The adventure must have been exciting.

Hi Jeff,

The idea of getting some of this inflorescences and try to collect pollen ´´crossed´´my mind when I was there. But unfortunately I didn´t collect them, thinking about how to dry and storage the flowers properly during the trip.... Now I realise that I missed this oportunity :(

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Just like Charles say, Cute palm tree :)

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(Charles/Portugal @ Feb. 11 2008,03:34)

QUOTE
cute looking palm Alberto, kunnen we nog zaad verwachten? :P

Reminds me a little of Calibanus hookeri.

Wie weet?

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Hi Alberto,

Congrats for the identification of this new and rare dwarf Butia in RGS state. I've seen a few posts from Kelen in the past (Yahoo group, admiradores de palmeiras) and he seems to be seriously researching the genus. Have you guys collected any fruit or individuals in the wild?

Looking forward for more pictures taken by both you and Nigel, during the whole trip.

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Something interesting and strange was that the clumps of Butia lallemantii were growing on raised soil looking little termites (cupim or cupinzeiro) a very common sight here on the´´campos´´ .I excavate some to seek for the little insects and saw they weren´t termites.... My explanation was that the roots and subterranean trunks of the clumps pull out the soil, making it look like termites. (?)...

  Are there other palms species that do this?......

``Cupinzeiro´´ or´´termites´´:

Faz.Sta.Maria.c.jpg

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I'm in agreement with the other posters. This would be a fabulous palm to cross with some of our larger coccoid palms. Maybe the IPS should fund an expedition. :)

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(Gileno Machado @ Feb. 12 2008,05:45)

QUOTE
Hi Alberto,

Congrats for the identification of this new and rare dwarf Butia in RGS state. I've seen a few posts from Kelen in the past (Yahoo group, admiradores de palmeiras) and he seems to be seriously researching the genus. Have you guys collected any fruit or individuals in the wild?

Looking forward for more pictures taken by both you and Nigel, during the whole trip.

Gileno,

 We where not able to collect plants because we didn´t have a spade by hand at that moment and the roots and subterranean trunks are very deep I supose.

 Senhor Bertoldi was the only one that found some ripe fruits and he divided some of the fruits between Nigel,Paulo and me. So I´m trying to germinate this and the other greener fruits that I found.

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Intersting Butia.  Hope to see seed show up in a couple years.

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Some of my questions weren´t answered.....

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Wow Alberto.

A greath discover! Congratulations!

Really, i have never seen a palm like that, save some rare in Paraguay.-

Soft long leaves, more green then grey, yellow petioles, clustered subterranean trunk, growing in red soils with many termites nests around.-

Gaston, Ar

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Alberto.

Im talking about this.-

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Butia/spParaguay.html

Yet, i get in mind to return there and watch more this.-

They are more close to you up there then me down here in the south.- Grow in the small "hill" of bad sandy soil, sorrounded by a huge soybean cultivation, near to a good asphalt road.-

The fruiting season must be during this days.-

The seedlings first leaves were aprox. 1,5 metres large, soft, green, tinny.- The palms leaves were 2 mts. long or more.- Its a big palm, not a lilliputian.-

Im sure this is a undescribed specie and perhaps relative of your lellemantii.-

Now that the cold is comming to my place.....

Im so tempted.....!

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Gaston, I first found out about those Butia lallemantii some 2 years ago searching for Butias on google, a guy had publsihed an article about a new species ,but at that tine it had no name.

With the help of Kelen in Rio Grande do Sul, Dr Noblick and some maps I planned the journey and we found them quite easily.

If you saw my travelogue, I am curious to know your opinion on the two different forms growing side by side, because the one that mimics grass reminds of your Butia campicola pictures.

Later in my travelogue are pictures from Paraguay and I am curious to know if this is the same Butias you wrote about on PACSOA .

I have one small Butia campicola from your seeds but it doesnt look grasslike ,it looks more like your plant, also I have a different one which I think is the other paraguay larger form you sent me. That was the only 2 seeds I germinated, most were eaten inside by insects.

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This is definitely one I would like to try up here. I plan to start buying seeds and seedlings of different Butia species as I feel this is one area (North Florida and Northern Gulf Coastal Regions) that would be a good place to act as a repository for rare species. So If you get seed.........Just remember Butia doesn't grow that great down in South Florida :)

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They grow great in inland California! :)

Dick

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(PalmGuyWC @ Mar. 31 2008,16:00)

QUOTE
They grow great in inland California! :)

Dick

....and even better on the tablelands from south Brazil!!! :D

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(Gaston in Argentina @ Mar. 31 2008,14:14)

QUOTE
......Soft long leaves, more green then grey, yellow petioles, clustered subterranean trunk, growing in red soils with many termites nests around.......

Gaston,the leaves of B.lalleantii are more blue then green!

You can see it in some of the pics.

 The reason I post the ´´termite pic´´ is to show to folks here how termites look like. In fact there were not termites there but I had the impression that all the palms were growing ´´on´´ termites,on that red soil elevations you can see on some of the pics.....

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Great topic!

...would make for a very interesting cross... :)

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Alberto

Do you say that those small hills are of termite ants nest?

If not, do you say that inside every termitelike nest are the palms?

I have seen termite nest as common in the red soils where Allagoptera campestris grow in N.W. Argentina and Py and Allagopteras growing nearly maybe because the soil is removed by the ants.-

I think they are abandoned ant nest, or perhaps, ants are used by the palms for spread its seeds inside their nests.-

I keep seedlings of Butia microspadix.- In my soil Butias and also Parajubs doesnt grow so fast as in another places.-

Your Parajubs. look very well, impressing.-

Were the Butia lellemantii with narrow leaflets?

were their leaflets soft and pendant?

Long, tinny leaflets seedlings?

Spines on petiole?

Fruits form?

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(Nigel @ Mar. 31 2008,15:13)

QUOTE
I have a different one which I think is the other paraguay larger form you sent me. That was the only 2 seeds I germinated, most were eaten inside by insects.

Nigel.

The seeds that i have sentyou in that opportunity come from that same harvest but from different Butias species, mostly unnamed.-

The larger can be easily from the same fruits seen in the picture of the rare Butia from Paraguay.-

There werent many palms and as you might know by your travels is difficult to found good Butia seeds, or fruits.-

Those seeds bettles, love to live inside the rarest trunkless species and is the reason because is so difficult to deal with those seeds from the campos and grasslands.-

I dont care with the many snakes that live in those fields, but yes about those insects larvae eating seeds. They enter into the seeds when the fruit is yet small and mature when they are ripen.-

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(Gaston in Argentina @ Mar. 31 2008,22:12)

QUOTE
Were the Butia lellemantii with narrow leaflets?

were their leaflets soft and pendant?

Long, tinny leaflets seedlings?

Spines on petiole?

Fruits form?

Gaston,there was two types growing in between each other,see this link

butia lallemantii

The grasslike one did not have spines that I could see.

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Alberto and Nigel.

2505944640047705136zeowZm_th.jpg

I think theres more then one Butia specie in the area, the interesting is this with an spikelike unbranched Allagopteralike inflorescence, Dr. Noblick tell that is tipical of the Butia campicola complex.-

I think the narrow leaflet Butia pictured is the same or very simmilar then the lost Butia in N.E. Argentina, also has the branched withe - cream inflorescence with small amount of fruits let me remember to be the same, would be B. marmorii.-

The landscape look also simmilar, an open area of a hill with poor soil like an island in the middle of the forest, with cactus, bromeliads and another desertlike vegetation.-

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In 2004 after I knowed and observed this species I spoke with a teatcher about the possibility its to be a new species.

He said to me that I was deceived. After 2 years, he described this species.

I didn't see termites in this soil, only ants. To me, the trunck also grow on direction of ground, the roots never be

in the end of trunk, they are around of the end (for the side). So, during the growth of the trunk, the soil go to high.

post-2078-1223745925_thumb.jpg

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The end of trunck

post-2078-1223746460_thumb.jpg

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Growing on rocks

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I found some Butyagrus (Syagrus romanzoffiana x Butia lallemantii)

post-2078-1223748044_thumb.jpg

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The fruits of Butia lallemantii

post-2078-1223748778_thumb.jpg

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The fruits of Butia lallemantii

Thanks for posting those pictures Kelen! I love seeing the Butia's and Syagrus in habitat. The B. lallemantii x Syagrus r. is very interesting too. Please post more pictures. Jeff

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The fruits of Butia lallemantii

Wow, great pictures. Are seed available?

Wai`anae Steve

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Butia lallemantii

post-2078-1223828864_thumb.jpg

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Habitat

post-2078-1223829074_thumb.jpg

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The fruits of Butia lallemantii

Wow, great pictures. Are seed available?

Wai`anae Steve

Yes, very interesting Kelen. I am curious as well about seed.

Thank you for all the great pictures.

Matt

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Gentlemen :)

Lovely coverage...And you folks have great endurance to go out in search of palms in wilderness ! :greenthumb:

Thanks & love,

Kris :)

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In 2004 after I knowed and observed this species I spoke with a teatcher about the possibility its to be a new species.

He said to me that I was deceived. After 2 years, he described this species.

I didn't see termites in this soil, only ants. To me, the trunck also grow on direction of ground, the roots never be

in the end of trunk, they are around of the end (for the side). So, during the growth of the trunk, the soil go to high.

Kelen,are you saying that you discovered B.lallemantii and that you was mislead ? :hmm: That was not fair!!! :rage:

Kelen,what I was trying to tell that it only looks like (IT LOOKS LIKE) the palms grow on the top of termites. In fact I think it´s soil that was pulled out by the subterranean trunks and roots....(?)

(Kelen ,eu quero dizer que as palmeirinhas parecem crescer sobre ´´cupins´´porque as raízes e troncos subterrâneos empurram a terra para cima. Na verdade não são cupins,somente se parecem

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It´s clear that this is another site than the site were I got the photos . Kelen,are your photos from only one site?

I remember people there (S.F.)saying that there were red and yellow fruiting plants on different places. Did you see different plants at your site (greener grass like and with broader blue leaflets???)

BTW What a beautifull place there with that B. lallemantiis growing in the´´arenitos´´!!!!!

Edited by Alberto
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Kelen,

I will add my name to the guys that are wanting seed!! Great pics!!! I would love to cross it w/ Syagrus, and you have seen the result!!! Did you harvest them?? I sure would have!! That pic w/ the Syagrus in the background is amazing, i would love to go there some day, a very interesting place!!

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